What happened?

[KPM]

I like Twinkies by the way.

This shut down would have not happened if it wasn’t for the union. Hostess filed Chapter 11. This would allow the company to be profitable and sustainable from their creditors. This is why we have Chapter 11. After a company like this files Chapter 11 they would have been able to restructure its debt and agreements with labor unions than just shut down and people would be without a job and unpaid loans.

Well the union took a vote and they all decided they would walk out on Hostess. The CEO then said if you walk out I will shut the plants down. The union cost 650 people their jobs. I feel sorry for those people because the more people that are out of work the more the economy suffers. People think that every CEO doesn’t give two cents about their employees but its not true. I know business owners that have taken a pay cut because so they wouldn’t have to fire people, they know they have families and bills too.

I know I have heard some of the workers on news reports say those were our jobs but they were not. Hostess created those jobs, you were looking for a job and they paid you for your jobs. That is just like a service that happens when you go to the store. Someone made the product, someone delivered it and the store sold it to the consumer. The exchange is done at that point.

2 times in the last decade (3 all told over last 50 years)Hostess has filed bankruptcy-Two Times.......each time they ask for more cuts, more REnegotiation, more going back on their agreements......the workers have agreed to changes but the severity of what they now want is obviously too much for the workers.......especially twice in a decade.
Once again if Hostess could promise all the bills that these individuals have to pay year in and year out-were cut to 1965 levels I'm sure those people would say "okay even though this is the second time for "givebacks" in 10 years we will do it again" and hope management can steer the company into better times.
They did that 10 years ago they sacrificed in their personal lives on every front-the union gave them some slack on pension to the tune of 900 million owed and counting....perhaps the workers (like all people) just have had enough of "Give us this-and we can turn it around"
I am not sure of what you do for a living-you have not volunteered that info-I respect your privacy-but I have no qualms about telling what I have done-how each profession unfolded and how I was treated-truth is truth and I have seen very few employers who actually take the cuts they impose upon their workers in bad times.
I do not doubt there are some who do-I just say in my 45 years work experience-I have not seen it.
In 94 the family owned restaurant I spoke that my wife worked for (the one who lied about her pregnancy leave) had storm damage to the canopy of the restaurant- bids were taken by reputatble companies to fix the damage, the insurance adjuster came and gave them nearly $5000 to replace the canopy....and then the owners got their janitor to put 10 sheets of plywood (about $100 in 94) and tarpaper over the canopy-and the owners wife got a new Chrysler that year. Business at its "finest and fairest"

[KPM]

The post that I responded to was not the one from Wall Street Journal. What I responded to was your thoughts on what happened during the economic decline.

The info about income taxes, the rich, workforce numbers increase each year, the banks loaning money for houses during Clinton's years and Bush's numbers are all facts NOT my opinion.

No offense but the Barney Frank angle of how the banks and housing industry collapsed are open to debate and interpretation-but it is the official Republican explaination on why during "Bushs watch" we had a meltdown that rivals the great depression IMO.
2 unfunded wars, (one legit) and a huge tax cut all in the same 8 years had nothing to do with the meltdown......not to mention the Medicare drug program for the elderly-which I commend Bush for his understanding how so many regular folks are stuggling with high drug costs-but it was the wrong time to start such a large new program. The Republicans signed off on all of this.
It still begs the question if all that tax cut money was invested in job creation-why were so few jobs created and why did we go back into a recession. The Bureau of Labor statistics keep accurate non partisan data on increases/decreases and percentage of growth in jobs for each year.
If the money was creating jobs-why did Bush give out not one but two stimulis rebates to Americans to stir job growth and the economy?

[KPM]

I do not feel we can cover any new ground in our discussion my friend....its not personal please believe that.
I am about 25-30 years older than you by your statement of being 5-6 during Reagans terms so we have totally differing points of reference.
Besides the generational gap we have differing workplace experiences that obviously help shape our outlooks and lastly as I have pointed out I have never felt Republicans were devils-nor angels they are people.
Reagan, both Bush's, Nixon, Ford were all Republican Presidents.
I voted for Nixon and Ford-did not see eye to eye with them on all things but on balance felt they were the best man at the time.
I have never not felt that Reagan, Bush or any other Republican was out to do purposely hurt people or the country.
But is disturbs me that all the way back to Carter-Republicans try to connect each Democratic candidate for president as somehow UnAmerican.
Year after year that worsens-Clinton when he was a Rhodes Scholar went to Russia on a trip with other students and suddenly the rumor that surface during his first campaign was-he was getting brain washed, or that he was finishing his indoctrination into the communist party....??? And there are people who believe that type tabloid propoganda-just by seeing it in print.
It has gone from that absurdity to even wilder rumors and winked eyebrows that say-Democrats are not American.
Well my friend I am an American-who just happens to see things differently from you.

[asian1]

I couldn't agree more, Many close friends of mine told me that I am that what they call living the American Dream. I am the 1st generation of Indonesian living in the USA this past 8 years, without family living here with me, I am pretty much depending on myself,..and I ve been there through some tough times and i am thankful to still hold a job , with a great benefits , roof on top of my head and food on my table. I may never understand some of the political terms or American history, but i know that this country was built from perseverance and hardwork,.. and even harder work to turn this ship around.

Yes indeed, this country was built from hard work and perserverance. It was comprised of people were farmers you helped theselves and their fellow man in times of need. You don't have to understand all the political rhetoric and terminology to prosper in America. I have worked with people from Indoesia, China, Germany, Croatia, Philippines, etc... and they are all religious, hard working people who understand and appriciate all this country has given them. It is people like this that will enable us to restore this wonderful country to its' greatness. The brotherhood and dedication of these wonderful communities working with each other is what gives hope to a bright and properous future.

Buttonhead: You have more understanding of this country than most politicians

[KPM]

Yes indeed, this country was built from hard work and perserverance. It was comprised of people were farmers you helped theselves and their fellow man in times of need. You don't have to understand all the political rhetoric and terminology to prosper in America. I have worked with people from Indoesia, China, Germany, Croatia, Philippines, etc... and they are all religious, hard working people who understand and appriciate all this country has given them. It is people like this that will enable us to restore this wonderful country to its' greatness. The brotherhood and dedication of these wonderful communities working with each other is what gives hope to a bright and properous future.

Buttonhead: You have more understanding of this country than most politicians

I am glad you see our country as a good place to live and work-its head and shoulders above any other country on earth-some forget that.
Believe it or not-the day after the election a group from Texas sent a petition with about 25 thousand names on it asking that Texas be allowed to secede from the US and become its own country.
Perhaps they should be allowed to do just that-let every single problem that befalls a country in time-fall upon those people of Texas with only their people, their money, their decisions....just adding a defense budget and a real army would break their state right off the bat.
But I'm sure most people of Texas have no desire to stand alone in this world that becomes more and more dangerous every year.

[King Of The Whole World]

I am glad you see our country as a good place to live and work-its head and shoulders above any other country on earth-some forget that.
Believe it or not-the day after the election a group from Texas sent a petition with about 25 thousand names on it asking that Texas be allowed to secede from the US and become its own country.
Perhaps they should be allowed to do just that-let every single problem that befalls a country in time-fall upon those people of Texas with only their people, their money, their decisions....just adding a defense budget and a real army would break their state right off the bat.
But I'm sure most people of Texas have no desire to stand alone in this world that becomes more and more dangerous every year.

It is several other states that are on that list too. But I think it was 80,000 names in Texas. A state needs 25,000 signatures to get a response from the Whitehouse. Do I think this will go anywhere? No. But I think what this does tell you about people are the fears of this president and how people are reacting to it.

I wouldn’t mind saying lets pick a few states, the republicans run some states with our ideas and let the democrats have some states with their ideas and see what happens. Now that would be interesting. You know what also, the states in the south (which are republican) that are on the list are some of the only states that are not about to be bankrupt. Places like California about to fall in a huge hole. So maybe that is just a little insight. Even though by law a state cannot go bankrupt.

[King Of The Whole World]

No offense but the Barney Frank angle of how the banks and housing industry collapsed are open to debate and interpretation-but it is the official Republican explaination on why during "Bushs watch" we had a meltdown that rivals the great depression IMO.
2 unfunded wars, (one legit) and a huge tax cut all in the same 8 years had nothing to do with the meltdown......not to mention the Medicare drug program for the elderly-which I commend Bush for his understanding how so many regular folks are stuggling with high drug costs-but it was the wrong time to start such a large new program. The Republicans signed off on all of this.
It still begs the question if all that tax cut money was invested in job creation-why were so few jobs created and why did we go back into a recession. The Bureau of Labor statistics keep accurate non partisan data on increases/decreases and percentage of growth in jobs for each year.
If the money was creating jobs-why did Bush give out not one but two stimulis rebates to Americans to stir job growth and the economy?

Like I said, every year there are more and more people that enter the workforce and the numbers will always look different than the previous administration and yearly totals. Bush still had lower unemployment than Obama has ever had. When unemployment is low it means there are plenty of jobs in the market. Now with unemployment high there are not many jobs in the market place.

There can always be room for economic growth but I don’t really agree that these stimulus packages work anyway. Obama did a stimulus package and it flopped too. I think there are better ways to stir up the economy. One of the ways would be to lower taxes (I will say that until I’m blue in the face). The studies show that the more you raise taxes on the so called rich and middle class, the economy will go in the tank. By raising taxes you are no where closer paying off the national debt. You make the debt higher not lower.

[King Of The Whole World]

2 times in the last decade (3 all told over last 50 years)Hostess has filed bankruptcy-Two Times.......each time they ask for more cuts, more REnegotiation, more going back on their agreements......the workers have agreed to changes but the severity of what they now want is obviously too much for the workers.......especially twice in a decade.
Once again if Hostess could promise all the bills that these individuals have to pay year in and year out-were cut to 1965 levels I'm sure those people would say "okay even though this is the second time for "givebacks" in 10 years we will do it again" and hope management can steer the company into better times.
They did that 10 years ago they sacrificed in their personal lives on every front-the union gave them some slack on pension to the tune of 900 million owed and counting....perhaps the workers (like all people) just have had enough of "Give us this-and we can turn it around"
I am not sure of what you do for a living-you have not volunteered that info-I respect your privacy-but I have no qualms about telling what I have done-how each profession unfolded and how I was treated-truth is truth and I have seen very few employers who actually take the cuts they impose upon their workers in bad times.
I do not doubt there are some who do-I just say in my 45 years work experience-I have not seen it.In 94 the family owned restaurant I spoke that my wife worked for (the one who lied about her pregnancy leave) had storm damage to the canopy of the restaurant- bids were taken by reputatble companies to fix the damage, the insurance adjuster came and gave them nearly $5000 to replace the canopy....and then the owners got their janitor to put 10 sheets of plywood (about $100 in 94) and tarpaper over the canopy-and the owners wife got a new Chrysler that year. Business at its "finest and fairest"

Yes I like to keep some of my privacy. Once you put something out there you can never get it back.

But I have been around businesses all my life. I know what it takes to operate one and the decisions that need to be made and the stress that you are under to keep the operation running. My dad has owned his small business before I was born, so I grew up in that environment. In the last few years his business has suffered and when he didn’t have money to pay himself, he didn’t fire people he paid them when he probably shouldn’t have. He knew they had kids and bills that needed to be taken care of. So there are plenty of other small business owners just like my dad that care about their employees sometimes to much. So you can’t throw all business owners into the category that they don’t care about people. My dad has said if he had to do it all over again, he probably would fire those people to help himself. After all he took all the risk when you own your own business.

Now I own a small business with a couple of other people. In this I have to make decisions that affect the company and those may not be the most popular with employees but you do the best you can. So when I talk about what businesses are going thru right now and the worry that Obama puts on us, I’m not guessing at what they are thinking and how people feel. It’s the truth. When I talk about the taxes and regulations (which Obama just added 6,100 new regulations in the last 90 days, like we didn’t have enough already) that kill small businesses its from experience and what I have to deal with in my business.

[King Of The Whole World]

I do not feel we can cover any new ground in our discussion my friend....its not personal please believe that.
I am about 25-30 years older than you by your statement of being 5-6 during Reagans terms so we have totally differing points of reference.
Besides the generational gap we have differing workplace experiences that obviously help shape our outlooks and lastly as I have pointed out I have never felt Republicans were devils-nor angels they are people.
Reagan, both Bush's, Nixon, Ford were all Republican Presidents.
I voted for Nixon and Ford-did not see eye to eye with them on all things but on balance felt they were the best man at the time.
I have never not felt that Reagan, Bush or any other Republican was out to do purposely hurt people or the country.
But is disturbs me that all the way back to Carter-Republicans try to connect each Democratic candidate for president as somehow UnAmerican.
Year after year that worsens-Clinton when he was a Rhodes Scholar went to Russia on a trip with other students and suddenly the rumor that surface during his first campaign was-he was getting brain washed, or that he was finishing his indoctrination into the communist party....??? And there are people who believe that type tabloid propoganda-just by seeing it in print.
It has gone from that absurdity to even wilder rumors and winked eyebrows that say-Democrats are not American.
Well my friend I am an American-who just happens to see things differently from you.

I have had fun discussing these matters with you. I'm sure everyone else is ready for us to give it up...ha.

What I will tell you is that we will see who is right in about two years. I'm afraid that I will be right with most of my worries and predictions.

[KPM]

I have had fun discussing these matters with you. I'm sure everyone else is ready for us to give it up...ha.

What I will tell you is that we will see who is right in about two years. I'm afraid that I will be right with most of my worries and predictions.

I have faith in our country-if your worries end up being right-then it will not be Obama who is solely to blame....as you yourself said-yes everyone needs to compromise and give a little.....takes 2 to tango and both partners have to do their part to get it right.
On the Hostess front I have some information right from a "company employee" who use to work with me in the 80s at the bakery I worked for.
She tells me that at 4 today the Union will vote on another proposal that has been sweetened slightly. But in her opinion the CEO already has plans for the company long term-she says after Interstate Bakeries bought Hostess and Wonder about 10 years ago-everything has gone down hill.
Interstate bought the competition and has treated them "as stepkids" her exact words. She feels he will eventually close the business, sell it piece meal and then sell the receipes for Twinkies, Hostess Cupcakes, DingDongs etc...to the highest bidder (something he has mentioned in the past)

She says they have not had any major advertising since Interstate bought them, they downsized the company when they bought in and moved many Wonder route people to depots shared with Interstate...the Interstate managers were in charge and they gave second class status to Wonder people......they are closing one of their major competitors which will only open the door to more business for the parent company.
Big business at its finest.
You know a lot of my "concerns" about big business are more moral......not strictly just dollars and cents.
IF we are indeed this better than the world "Christian" nation.... business has a funny way of showing it in many situations.
I could quote scripture after scripture but the bottom line is Christ fed the poor (with no preconditions about why they were poor)
He healed the sick (with no hesitancy about whether they should have healthcare or not)
He helped the world, without making them choose a side or ideology-that choice was theirs.

[KPM]

Like I said, every year there are more and more people that enter the workforce and the numbers will always look different than the previous administration and yearly totals. Bush still had lower unemployment than Obama has ever had. When unemployment is low it means there are plenty of jobs in the market. Now with unemployment high there are not many jobs in the market place.

There can always be room for economic growth but I don’t really agree that these stimulus packages work anyway. Obama did a stimulus package and it flopped too. I think there are better ways to stir up the economy. One of the ways would be to lower taxes (I will say that until I’m blue in the face). The studies show that the more you raise taxes on the so called rich and middle class, the economy will go in the tank. By raising taxes you are no where closer paying off the national debt. You make the debt higher not lower.

National Debt and the yearly deficit are 2 different things.
The national debt could not be paid off in a single stroke it will be a long long process of many years (that Clinton and the Republican Congress had begun to do before Bush)-but reducing the yearly deficit (which adds yearly to the National Debt) is where you start and raising those taxes back to the "original preBush rates would be a start.
If you extend the cuts to the upper 2% again you add to the yearly deficit because we have borrowed to pay for those cuts every year since they were enacted.

[KPM]

News from KMOX news in St Louis on the Hostess situation spoke with Union Reps for their side...news that the CEO of Hostess does not volunteer in his press statements:
......... Hostess Brands is falsely claiming that its decision to close three of its bakeries -- St. Louis, Cincinnati and Seattle -- is the result of the nationwide strike against the company by BCTGM members.

In fact, according to the company's 1113 filing with the bankruptcy court earlier this year as well as its last/best/final and non-negotiable proposal to its BCTGM-represented workers, the company was planning to close at least nine bakeries as part of its reorganization plan, although the company refused to disclose which bakeries it intended to close. This is in addition to the three bakeries that were to be closed as a result of the company's planned sale of its Merita division.
Moreover, St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay was quoted in a Nov. 13 KMOX-CBS St. Louis article stating, “I was told months ago they were planning on closing the site in St. Louis… And there was no indication at that time it had anything to do with the strike the workers were waging.”BCTGM International Union President Frank Hurt stated, “The recent claim by Hostess CEO Greg Rayburn that our strike is the reason for the closure of the three bakeries is simply not true. That statement is a continuation of a disturbing pattern by the company of issuing public statements that are erroneous at best and disingenuous at worst.“
Our members rejected the company's outrageous proposal by 92 percent in September. Rejection came from every corner of the country. They were being asked to vote on a proposal with massive concessions, knowing that their plant could very well be one of those to be closed.

“Our members are on strike because they have had enough. They are not willing to take draconian wage and benefit cuts on top of the significant concessions they made in 2004 and give up their pension so that the Wall Street vulture capitalists in control of this company can walk away with millions of dollars.”
Over the past eight years since the first Hostess bankruptcy, BCTGM members have watched as money from previous concessions that was supposed to go towards capital investment, product development, plant improvement and new equipment, was squandered in executive bonuses, payouts to Wall Street investors and payments to high-priced attorneys and consultants.BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from$375,000 to $656,256.

stop-obligated payments to their pension plan. Despite saving more than $160 million with this action, the company continues to fall deeper and deeper into debt. A mountain of debt and gross mismanagement by a string of failed CEO's with no true experience in the wholesale baking business have left this company unable to compete or survive.

[KPM]

Since you said you enjoyed the give and take of this debate I thought I might just continue it....remembering my friend that is is not personal

Business large or small, should have as much say so as is fair and just in a democracy because even though we are all free-you can do nothing that infringes upon the rights of someone else as determined by the Constitution and laws created "legally by the legislature......and...there have to be rules for the workplace because this country says we all have basic rights, whether you own that business or you push a broom.
You also have to have environmental rules because no business owns the air, no business owns the water of the world, no business has the right to chemically invade the space of anyone-because they do not want to do the responsible thing and make sure they are not in any way shape or form polluting their neighbors....or polluting the future (that our kids and grandkids will live in)
To be in business is a great responsiblity not just for the risk you take-which I agree is the owners.........but because your decisions and policys can have huge effects on peoples lives and health of the community....and future of an area to be safely habitable.
If business's always did the right thing-there would be no need for any rules-they just do not.
The consequence of even one major screwup by a business that is shown to have negative results on people, the water, the air, farmland etc....ends up with a new regulation...not because anyone wants a new rule...... but because people complain to their elected officials about the consequence of that major screwup by that one business and the elected officials have to act-Repub or Dem-when the people speak they are suppose to react.
IE One bad apple can indeed spoil the whole bunch. Other business's now must do whatever has been "legally legislated"
I wish it was not that way but this is the way of the world-the bad seeds unfortunately affect everyone...
Same in your business-some employee abuses a right you have allowed your employees to have-9 times out of 10 everyone gets a new rule about that situation and everyone pays......even though only the one has abused that right.
Good employees get the shaft from bad employers, Good employers get the shaft from bad employees, the government must act when people complain or their is proof of willful and knowing negligence by owner in any given business that has a negative result-that is part or the risk you take when you go into business........this is not new-this is the way it works.
People claim to hate new laws-but people complaining bring them about....coffee too hot- lawsuit....new law on how hot coffee should be....swamp land that is uninhabitable sold to people for building new houses-people complain....housing laws are added or changed.....new rules for transparency in sales of land that have a swamp on i and those laws all affect even the good business owners-can not be helped.
I agree with you all the regulations are probably not needed for honest well managed business-but there is no way to respond to the things I have described that can weed out the good business people from the bad ones-and thats the way is has always been.
One bad apple...............





Big government sometimes gets bigger because of it citizens- business owners, customers, or both.

Hurricaines hit-and because of budget cuts.....levys are not adequate, responce is slow because disaster budget is cut, people are hurting and suddenly everyone is complaining..."How could this happen in the US" and many of those same people a few years before probably complained about "big government that needs to be smaller"
So what happens..... "whoever is in charge of Congress" then adds more funds to the disaster responce budget to make sure it never happens again.

[King Of The Whole World]

National Debt and the yearly deficit are 2 different things.
The national debt could not be paid off in a single stroke it will be a long long process of many years (that Clinton and the Republican Congress had begun to do before Bush)-but reducing the yearly deficit (which adds yearly to the National Debt) is where you start and raising those taxes back to the "original preBush rates would be a start.
If you extend the cuts to the upper 2% again you add to the yearly deficit because we have borrowed to pay for those cuts every year since they were enacted.

Yes I know that the national debt ($16 trillion) and yearly deficit ($1 trillion per year under Obama, more debt than any other president combined) are two different things. He called Bush’s $4 trillion dollars un-American but his $6 trillion in 4 years is what?

Here is what the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) has just released a report backing up what I have been saying raising the taxes for anyone over $250,000 will not change the national debt. Everyone knows that if you raise taxes on a sluggish economy, it will send it into a tail spin. Here has what as been said…

But just how much deficit reduction would Obama’s tax hikes on the rich necessarily accomplish?

Nothing, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Letting tax rates rise to Clinton era levels for those families making over $250,000 a year would only raise $824 billion over ten years. That is not even enough revenue to undo the sequester that Obama promised “will not happen” during his final debate with Mitt Romney.

As I have said all along, you need to reduce spending (yearly deficit) and lower taxes to change the national debt. The spending that we do every year is just unbelievable. I’m not just blaming Obama on spending it has been going on for generations.

Here are just some of the really stupid things we spend money on (30 total). Hit all of this with a sledge hammer and I just saved the taxpayers $29.6 trillion dollars. This article was not even adding in other stupid things like PBS ($400 million a year).

The following are 30 incredibly stupid things that the federal government is spending money on….
#1 The U.S. government is spending $750,000 on a new soccer field for detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.
#2 The Obama administration plans to spend between 16 and 20 million dollars helping students from Indonesia get master’s degrees.
#3 If you can believe it, the U.S. government has spent $175,587 “to determine if cocaine makes Japanese quail engage in sexually risky behavior”.
#4 The U.S. government spent $200,000 on “a tattoo removal program” in Mission Hills, California.
#5 The federal government has shelled out $3 million to researchers at the University of California at Irvine to fund their research on video games such as World of Warcraft. Wouldn’t we all love to have a “research job” like that?
#6 The Department of Health and Human Services plans to spend $500 million on a program that will, among other things, seek to solve the problem of 5-year-old children that “can’t sit still” in a kindergarten classroom.
#7 Fannie Mae is about to ask the federal government for another $4.6 billion bailout, and it will almost certainly get it.
#8 The federal government once spent 30 million dollars on a program that was designed to help Pakistani farmers produce more mangos.
#9 The U.S. Department of Agriculture once gave researchers at the University of New Hampshire $700,000 to study methane gas emissions from dairy cows.
#10 According to USA Today, 13 different government agencies “fund 209 different science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) education programs — and 173 of those programs overlap with at least one other program.”
#11 A total of $615,000 was given to the University of California at Santa Cruz to digitize photos, T-shirts and concert tickets belonging to the Grateful Dead.
#12 China lends us more money than any other foreign nation, but that didn’t stop our government from spending 17.8 million dollars on social and environmental programs for China.
#13 The U.S. government once spent 2.6 million dollars to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly.
#14 One professor at Stanford University was given $239,100 to study how Americans use the Internet to find love.
#15 The U.S. Postal Service spent $13,500 on a single dinner at Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.
#16 The National Science Foundation once spent $216,000 to study whether or not politicians “gain or lose support by taking ambiguous positions”.
#17 A total of $1.8 million was spent on a “museum of neon signs” in Las Vegas, Nevada.
#18 The federal government spends 25 billion dollars a year maintaining federal buildings that are either unused or totally vacant.
#19 U.S. farmers are given a total of $2 billion each year for not farming their land.
#20 The U.S. government handed one Tennessee library $5,000 for the purpose of hosting a series of video game parties.
#21 A few years ago the government spent $123,050 on a Mother’s Day Shrine in Grafton, West Virginia. It turns out that Grafton only has a population of a little more than 5,000 people.
#22 One professor at Dartmouth University was given $137,530 to create a “recession-themed” video game entitled “Layoff”.
#23 According to the Heritage Foundation, the U.S. military spent “$998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida”.
#24 The U.S. Department of Agriculture once shelled out $30,000 to a group of farmers to develop a tourist-friendly database of farms that host guests for overnight “haycations”.
#25 The National Institutes of Health paid researchers $400,000 to find out why gay men in Argentina engage in risky sexual behavior when they are drunk.
#26 The National Institutes of Health also once spent $442,340 to study the behavior of male prostitutes in Vietnam.
#27 The National Institutes of Health loves to spend our tax money on really bizarre things. The NIH once spent $800,000 in “stimulus funds” to study the impact of a “genital-washing program” on men in South Africa.
#28 According to the Washington Post, 1,271 different government organizations work on government programs related to counterterrorism and homeland security.
#29 The U.S. government spent $100,000 on a “Celebrity Chef Fruit Promotion Road Show in Indonesia”.
#30 The feds once gave Alaska Airlines $500,000 “to paint a Chinook salmon” on the side of a Boeing 737.

[KPM]

It is several other states that are on that list too. But I think it was 80,000 names in Texas. A state needs 25,000 signatures to get a response from the Whitehouse. Do I think this will go anywhere? No. But I think what this does tell you about people are the fears of this president and how people are reacting to it.

I wouldn’t mind saying lets pick a few states, the republicans run some states with our ideas and let the democrats have some states with their ideas and see what happens. Now that would be interesting. You know what also, the states in the south (which are republican) that are on the list are some of the only states that are not about to be bankrupt. Places like California about to fall in a huge hole. So maybe that is just a little insight. Even though by law a state cannot go bankrupt.

The secede idea is also a Knee Jerk reaction-some wanted to secede when Clinton was elected also.
The birther idea-such a waste of time...but in good knee jerk tradition...it has been continued right up to today by a dwendling number of people.
Perhaps when Clinton was "getting indoctrinated in Russia in the mid 60s" Obama was actually conceived in Moscow
The Donald Trump stunts have been hilarious-every 6 months he feels unwanted and calls a press conference to announce some new info on Obama...first it was about his detective in Hawaii that had startling info-that never materialised, then later when Obama released his original Hawaiin BCertificate-nearly all sane reasonable Repubs said "Okay that ends that" but not Trump...his announcement are self serving grabs for spotlight in the guise of being a good American.

I would be willing to let one state-any state that wants to secede-go ahead and do so....with the logical proviso that YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.
Defense is your problem, natural disasters are your problem, the elderly, poor, disabled, homeless, are all your problem.
All the things complained about as a state concerning the Federal government are your problem....you figure it out reap the benefits or suffer the consequences. Would love to see it happen....

[KPM]

Yes I know that the national debt ($16 trillion) and yearly deficit ($1 trillion per year under Obama, more debt than any other president combined) are two different things. He called Bush’s $4 trillion dollars un-American but his $6 trillion in 4 years is what?

Here is what the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) has just released a report backing up what I have been saying raising the taxes for anyone over $250,000 will not change the national debt. Everyone knows that if you raise taxes on a sluggish economy, it will send it into a tail spin. Here has what as been said…

But just how much deficit reduction would Obama’s tax hikes on the rich necessarily accomplish?

Nothing, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Letting tax rates rise to Clinton era levels for those families making over $250,000 a year would only raise $824 billion over ten years. That is not even enough revenue to undo the sequester that Obama promised “will not happen” during his final debate with Mitt Romney.

As I have said all along, you need to reduce spending (yearly deficit) and lower taxes to change the national debt. The spending that we do every year is just unbelievable. I’m not just blaming Obama on spending it has been going on for generations.

Here are just some of the really stupid things we spend money on (30 total). Hit all of this with a sledge hammer and I just saved the taxpayers $29.6 trillion dollars. This article was not even adding in other stupid things like PBS ($400 million a year).
The following are 30 incredibly stupid things that the federal government is spending money on….
#1 The U.S. government is spending $750,000 on a new soccer field for detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.
#2 The Obama administration plans to spend between 16 and 20 million dollars helping students from Indonesia get master’s degrees.
#3 If you can believe it, the U.S. government has spent $175,587 “to determine if cocaine makes Japanese quail engage in sexually risky behavior”.
#4 The U.S. government spent $200,000 on “a tattoo removal program” in Mission Hills, California.
#5 The federal government has shelled out $3 million to researchers at the University of California at Irvine to fund their research on video games such as World of Warcraft. Wouldn’t we all love to have a “research job” like that?
#6 The Department of Health and Human Services plans to spend $500 million on a program that will, among other things, seek to solve the problem of 5-year-old children that “can’t sit still” in a kindergarten classroom.
#7 Fannie Mae is about to ask the federal government for another $4.6 billion bailout, and it will almost certainly get it.
#8 The federal government once spent 30 million dollars on a program that was designed to help Pakistani farmers produce more mangos.
#9 The U.S. Department of Agriculture once gave researchers at the University of New Hampshire $700,000 to study methane gas emissions from dairy cows.
#10 According to USA Today, 13 different government agencies “fund 209 different science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) education programs — and 173 of those programs overlap with at least one other program.”
#11 A total of $615,000 was given to the University of California at Santa Cruz to digitize photos, T-shirts and concert tickets belonging to the Grateful Dead.
#12 China lends us more money than any other foreign nation, but that didn’t stop our government from spending 17.8 million dollars on social and environmental programs for China.
#13 The U.S. government once spent 2.6 million dollars to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly.
#14 One professor at Stanford University was given $239,100 to study how Americans use the Internet to find love.
#15 The U.S. Postal Service spent $13,500 on a single dinner at Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.
#16 The National Science Foundation once spent $216,000 to study whether or not politicians “gain or lose support by taking ambiguous positions”.
#17 A total of $1.8 million was spent on a “museum of neon signs” in Las Vegas, Nevada.
#18 The federal government spends 25 billion dollars a year maintaining federal buildings that are either unused or totally vacant.
#19 U.S. farmers are given a total of $2 billion each year for not farming their land.
#20 The U.S. government handed one Tennessee library $5,000 for the purpose of hosting a series of video game parties.
#21 A few years ago the government spent $123,050 on a Mother’s Day Shrine in Grafton, West Virginia. It turns out that Grafton only has a population of a little more than 5,000 people.
#22 One professor at Dartmouth University was given $137,530 to create a “recession-themed” video game entitled “Layoff”.
#23 According to the Heritage Foundation, the U.S. military spent “$998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida”.
#24 The U.S. Department of Agriculture once shelled out $30,000 to a group of farmers to develop a tourist-friendly database of farms that host guests for overnight “haycations”.
#25 The National Institutes of Health paid researchers $400,000 to find out why gay men in Argentina engage in risky sexual behavior when they are drunk.
#26 The National Institutes of Health also once spent $442,340 to study the behavior of male prostitutes in Vietnam.
#27 The National Institutes of Health loves to spend our tax money on really bizarre things. The NIH once spent $800,000 in “stimulus funds” to study the impact of a “genital-washing program” on men in South Africa.
#28 According to the Washington Post, 1,271 different government organizations work on government programs related to counterterrorism and homeland security.
#29 The U.S. government spent $100,000 on a “Celebrity Chef Fruit Promotion Road Show in Indonesia”.
#30 The feds once gave Alaska Airlines $500,000 “to paint a Chinook salmon” on the side of a Boeing 737.

Where did you get the 29.6 trillion figure for savings by sledge hammering this list of 30???

Our US budget for 2012 was just under 4 trillion-how can you find 29.6 trillion in savings out of 4 trillion total? Its not possible to get 29.6 trillion out of 4 trillion...I know I am little older and math has changed but not that much. It may be 29.6 billion after I gave it a quick count.


Also I will agree that many things in our budget are wasteful....but not all....what is it that Republicans have against PBS?
Its like a focal point for outrage and venting.
All Repubs always preface their plan to cut PBS by saying.....my kids and grandkids love Seseme Street...bu....t......its almost funny in a sad sort of way.
This list must be a conservative talking point-I entered the first sentence in my search engine and a couple dozen pages popped up of conservative think tanks, blogs, far right websites and similar Repub sources.
They probably mass e-mailed that list for maximum saturation and anger fuel.

[KPM]

Another loved idea to hate by some is the Foreign Aid to other countries. Most Americans think we send 20-30% of our total budget to other countries when in reality it is under 1% of our total budget...and half of that goes to countries we have some type of pact with for defense, or security agreements.....but we do help countries when disaster strikes, or with huge poverty and feeding problems......that has been the US policy under Repub or Dem....it shows our Christian legacy of helping others...that we are suppose to represent in our country.

[King Of The Whole World]

Where did you get the 29.6 trillion figure for savings by sledge hammering this list of 30???

Our US budget for 2012 was just under 4 trillion-how can you find 29.6 trillion in savings out of 4 trillion total? Its not possible to get 29.6 trillion out of 4 trillion...I know I am little older and math has changed but not that much. It may be 29.6 billion after I gave it a quick count.


Also I will agree that many things in our budget are wasteful....but not all....what is it that Republicans have against PBS?
Its like a focal point for outrage and venting.
All Repubs always preface their plan to cut PBS by saying.....my kids and grandkids love Seseme Street...bu....t......its almost funny in a sad sort of way.This list must be a conservative talking point-I entered the first sentence in my search engine and a couple dozen pages popped up of conservative think tanks, blogs, far right websites and similar Repub sources.
They probably mass e-mailed that list for maximum saturation and anger fuel.

You might be right on the 29.6 trillion, I entered all of the numbers into a spreadsheet and that’s what I came up with. I might have added to many zeros or something, I’m not use to that kind of number. Ha. If you look at some of the items that we spent money on not all of them are yearly, some of them are a one time cost. I was just trying to be humorous when it came to what I could do.

The thing with PBS is, I’m not sure if it is needed anymore. I know years ago even when I was growing up that was about the only things kids could watch on tv. Now there is the internet, cable, DVD’s and other forms of educational programs. Even most of the poor will have some sort of basic cable to watch other kids programs. The other point is we give them $400 million dollars every year of tax payer’s money. Then PBS turns around and sells a billion dollars a year worth of junk such as DVD’s, Tickle Me Elmo and all the other things they make and sell. Do they pay any of the $400 million dollars back to the TAX PAYERS? A BIG FAT NO. If they made some sort of effort to pay any of that money back maybe people would let it slide. With the amount of money they make a year they could easily make it on their own without the tax payers hard earned money.

No there have been many books written on this very subject…the amount of money we spend on stupid things. There has been just a book that came out that had $90 billion dollars worth of junk of spending. Those are not bias articles on spending, spending is spending. It doesn’t matter what side you are on. Some people just don’t want to believe that we are that stupid. This is what is out of control, not taxes on the so called rich.

[KPM]

You might be right on the 29.6 trillion, I entered all of the numbers into a spreadsheet and that’s what I came up with. I might have added to many zeros or something, I’m not use to that kind of number. Ha. If you look at some of the items that we spent money on not all of them are yearly, some of them are a one time cost. I was just trying to be humorous when it came to what I could do.

The thing with PBS is, I’m not sure if it is needed anymore. I know years ago even when I was growing up that was about the only things kids could watch on tv. Now there is the internet, cable, DVD’s and other forms of educational programs. Even most of the poor will have some sort of basic cable to watch other kids programs. The other point is we give them $400 million dollars every year of tax payer’s money. Then PBS turns around and sells a billion dollars a year worth of junk such as DVD’s, Tickle Me Elmo and all the other things they make and sell. Do they pay any of the $400 million dollars back to the TAX PAYERS? A BIG FAT NO. If they made some sort of effort to pay any of that money back maybe people would let it slide. With the amount of money they make a year they could easily make it on their own without the tax payers hard earned money.

No there have been many books written on this very subject…the amount of money we spend on stupid things. There has been just a book that came out that had $90 billion dollars worth of junk of spending. Those are not bias articles on spending, spending is spending. It doesn’t matter what side you are on. Some people just don’t want to believe that we are that stupid. This is what is out of control, not taxes on the so called rich.

I agree junk spending should be stopped-but not all on that list is junk...IE 2 Billion to farmers not to grow crops in certain years...on surface sounds stupid....but ask the farmers, agricultural experts and economists why and they will tell you that some years the soil must be allowed to rest, regenerate and become fertile again, that in years of "bumper crops" certain grains "corn" for instance is so abundant that the silos on farms and the storage silos they rent for those bumper years become absolutely stuffed-to the point of grain just sitting open-thus the price for corn goes way way down and those farmers must plant less for the coming year and they take a huge beating in the year of the bumper crop, food manufacturers stock up on the bargain corn and need less the next year IE a farmer who works to get the best crop possible and succeeds ends up being penalized for succees........the payments to farmers are not a winfall-they are to protect the American Farmer so this country has adequate food at some measure of fair pricing....American Farmers are a necessity of our country and they are dwendling in number-someone has to grow the food, someone has to harvest those crops and they are essential to our way of life. The plan has worked for 80 years. Under Reagan in the mid 80s dairy farmers had so much milk that they were dumping it onto the ground because they could not store it and prices fell through the floor. Reagan with Democratic Speaker O'Neals help got legislation to buy that milk, had in turned into 5 pound blocks of cheese, cottage cheese, etc and it was then given to the poor thru places like the Salvation Army also rice, flour and cornmeal were distributed...it helped save many smaller dairy farms and it kept prices more stable.
So yes it sounds stupid-but when you look beyond the initial thought-it makes sense-not all programs that seem to be stupid are but I agree they should be reviewed and those that are truly stupid should go.
As far as PBS-the money they make from selling things goes into their budget, the pledge drive also raises money that goes into their budget.....the premise that we have more available things for kids to watch is true-but the bulk are not educational, in fact they are not fit for children PBS has long and hard been a very upscale network that wants to educate not just kids but everyone. I would say that I might go for taxpayer dollars only going toward the childrens educational programming and none for adult content...that is a compromise...PBS does not have to payback the money allocated to them, that has never been a part of the process that sends them the money...it is a cultural expense... if a society has no respect for it culture it becomes a static bland society. Thats why we have supported museums for art and history, thats why we have parks and great libraries.
This country is a great place- and one of the reasons is our support of culture.


Well when 98% of the country makes "below 250 thousand" and only 2% make above that threshold-the "so called rich" are in fact the rich.
The richest upper 1% are in a stratosphere all their own.
When you go by percentage of income and add all taxes into the mix (not just Federal income tax) the lower 98% pay a higher total tax rate by far as has been pointed out time and time again.....most recently by Warren Buffet one of the many billionaires who are willing to pay the higher rate.
Reagan did cut Federal Income Taxes as promised....but virtually every other tax during his years went up, state income, SS, Medicare, gas tax, sales taxes local property taxes, user fees, etc........WHY? Because the cuts to states and local government hurt and put a bind on their budgets so they could not roll back the years of inflation to 1946 and they had to raise their respective rates, fees, etc........

[KPM]

JUst watched the CEO of Hostess Rayburn on the Today show-and he said no matter what the Bakers Union decided Hostess was going to liquidate its company and sell off its assets. His initial statement was to blame the reason for the closure on the strike by the Bakers Union but when a statement by the Union President was read to him that accused him of disingenous statements leading to this point and pointed out that in the 10 years of bankruptcy problems the members made no decisions as to company direction nor had any say so in how the company was run and had already taken cutbacks in the first bankruptcy...
Rayburn then turned red and said-there was enough blame for all parties to go around....amazing he actually took some responsibility for the company he helmed.
Of course he and the other execs could live quite a while on the hefty bonuses they have got in the last years of operation....or they may end up working for the parent company Interstate Bakeries which bought HOstess?Wonder in 95 then Hostess files bankruptcy in 2000, then INterstate files in 2004 comes out of it stronger in 2009 and now they have finally done away with their competition Hostess and Interstate will have a much wider avenue of sales with them gone. Shame ethics is gone from big business.