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Thread: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

  1. #41
    TCB Mafia KPM's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivaelvis View Post
    First off, JP said that Elvis never owned a Koran. Not that it was a gift to him by Ali.

    Second, my source spoke directly to a former Graceland staff worker who took part in setting up displays. This was NOT hearsay.Third, unless you are of Christian faith you cannot possibly begin to understand the outcry one would get from the Christian community to associate with the Islamic beliefs. Such as owning a Koran. Religious beliefs and faith are the most controversial and dangerous things to debate about in society. They can even lead to violence and death. The two most followed religions in the world are Christianity and Islamic.

    Back to the topic of the thread. EPE is putting fans into a potentially dangerous situation by taking them to the Holy Land and preaching the word of God to Elvis fans, knowing that many Muslims are fans of Elvis too and that Muslims dominate that region and the temple where Jesus is said to one day return. If they are smart, they won't isolate or alienate other religious groups. If they ever did and those fans turned on them, the company would be in some deep crap. They strongly depend on international tourism for income. They better have strong advisers looking into this.
    The poster is not JP-its JR, he did say Elvis never owned a Koran-but he asked for proof that the Koran you claim he had.... was given to him by Mohammed Ali. You state unequivically in a post that Ali gave Elvis a Koran as a gift.
    I only got involved in this debate because I have books on Ali, I have over 60 books on Elvis..... I have been a fan of Elvis for nearing 50 years and of Ali for 40 years.....and I have never ever read about a gift of a Koran. Ali has never in the many interviews I have read or heard mentioned such a gift-he has mentioned the robe and boxing gloves.
    Now before I would "spread that supposed fact to others" I would want to be confident that it is absolutely 100% true so I also asked for your source for the Ali gift story-you have not given one-and you have said perhaps Ali did not give it to him.
    I was not questioning "if Elvis had a Koran, or had ever seen a Koran, or studied a Koran" I was asking for some legit source for the Ali gift story.
    You need to understand the legal meaning of "hearsay"

    Your source for the story about the existence of a Koran owned or studied by Elvis-is indeed legally hearsay evidence-in fact its 3rd party hearsay, and hearsay is not admissable in court. The reason is because you witnessed nothing, nor did your source........you are hearing of a situation-with no eye witness knowledge.
    Your unnamed source told you and he was told by some unnamed Graceland staffer.
    The only person who could testify to the truthfullness of this Koran rumor-would be the staffer who would have to be named and swear in court or deposition that in fact he saw a Koran with Elvis's writing in it.
    Now if Ali, Joe Esposito, Charlie, Red, Sonny, Priscilla, Todd Morgan, Lamar, etc....all known insiders who spent literally years of their life with Elvis had specifically mentioned the Koran gift, or a Koran in any of their books, or their written and filmed interviews...then the hearsay would carry much more chance of being fact-but no one does.

    I am a born again Christian...there are many Muslims who do not follow the radical view of Islam-they are peaceful and have a right in America to their religion....I see nothing wrong in that, I see nothing wrong in reading or owning a Koran in America. Isn't that what we are about?
    I do not see anything wrong with Elvis-a Christian reading other religious books including a Koran. Christianity leaves choice open to every human and your choices decide you fate after you die-but those choices are not forced.
    A view on any given subject is as narrow or broad as each person decides-thats America.
    With all due respect, thats why its important to get facts... or supposed facts-pinned down so your decisions are well informed and not based on rumor or hearsay.
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  2. #42
    TCB Mafia KPM's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Now to the heart of this thread, EPE is not putting anyone at risk-anyone who goes on this trip will make that decision...if enough people fear the risk there will be no tour of the Holy Land.
    Pat Boone has for years made trips to the Holy Land with other Christians who want to walk the streets that Jesus did, tour groups set up the tours and not one of the people who have visited with Pat Boone has ever been harmed.
    Pat Robertson of the 700 Club has also hosted many trips to Isreal, not problems, this is not uncommon.
    But any trip overseas in todays world will carry risks-people can decide that for themselves EPE is not forcing anyone to go.

    Again, with all due respect, Muslim fans of Elvis-know he is a Christian....they know he believed in the Bible, they know he spoke of there being only one true King......Jesus. They listen to him singing the Christian hymn "How Great thou Art" on his records and concert films.........If they do not let that bother them-why would people visiting the Holy Land suddenly make angry. He is accepted for his talent and the joy he brings to them in his singing, they may feel as I do-his religion is his choice.
    Muslims who are offended by Christians coming to the Holy Land, probably are not Elvis fans to start with- they would be offended by his Christian songs, and his pointing to Christ as God.
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  3. #43
    International Level Cliff's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Now to the heart of this thread, EPE is not putting anyone at risk-anyone who goes on this trip will make that decision...if enough people fear the risk there will be no tour of the Holy Land.
    Pat Boone has for years made trips to the Holy Land with other Christians who want to walk the streets that Jesus did, tour groups set up the tours and not one of the people who have visited with Pat Boone has ever been harmed.
    Pat Robertson of the 700 Club has also hosted many trips to Isreal, not problems, this is not uncommon.
    But any trip overseas in todays world will carry risks-people can decide that for themselves EPE is not forcing anyone to go.

    Again, with all due respect, Muslim fans of Elvis-know he is a Christian....they know he believed in the Bible, they know he spoke of there being only one true King......Jesus. They listen to him singing the Christian hymn "How Great thou Art" on his records and concert films.........If they do not let that bother them-why would people visiting the Holy Land suddenly make angry. He is accepted for his talent and the joy he brings to them in his singing, they may feel as I do-his religion is his choice.
    Muslims who are offended by Christians coming to the Holy Land, probably are not Elvis fans to start with- they would be offended by his Christian songs, and his pointing to Christ as God.
    You ask, "Why are they so angry." I don't feel they let there religious beliefs get in the way of there admiration and love for Elvis. Unlike we in the West, they don't all judge a man by his religion but by his deeds and his heart. Elvis had a special charisma that captured many people regardless of race,color, or creed.
    I guess it has to be said, but it's the political aspect of the whole thing. I didn't really want to go down this road as this is not a political forum, but with the recent events in the Middle East, and in paricular the Iran / Israel conflict, this well may be seen as taking sides by EPE. It goes without saying that it would be impossible for this tour to go to Iran. But then why not any other Islamic country? This tour can only polarize people more and be seen as taking sides in the said conflicts. For this reason I think EPE should show a neutral stance and stay at home.
    If the feeling is that I myself am taking sides because of my focusing on the Islamic aspect of all this, I can assure you this is not the case. I just do not like to see people judge others by what is written in the media. Find the good in people before you judge.
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Well I dont feel offended with Elvis' religious song, to me he was sang to praised the Lord, his lord may call as Jesus, while mine is Allah, but God is good you know.

    I would think Elvis would do the tour to the Holy land BUT just him as the citizen of the world, and not as an Entertainer, as like the rest of us going there to worship the Lord, I would assumed he would bring some of his closest friends only .. I am sure he had this kind of thought in his mind during his lifetime, although unwritten just like many other plan he had which unfinished due to his untimely death.


    I dont get offended easily with many of story about Elvis being Christian,...etc. I guess I am the modern muslim, I am open minded about the world, we all born in different shape , colors, cultures and environment . I am not sure how the rest of Muslim or Christian Elvis fans would say ,to each its own I guess.

  5. #45
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Of The Whole World View Post
    I guess I don't understand the logic behind it, doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what EPE is thinking about mixing Elvis with religion. I donít think Elvis would approve of this at all.
    I agree.Elvis passed away. Respect is what he felt and what he believed. I think that faith is not the best topic to discuss.
    We know who was the King for Elvis, Jesus. We know this from his speech. Let us respect the silence of the rest.
    I'll Remember You!!!

  6. #46
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Holy Land tours usually mean going specifically to Israel and certain sites of Biblical interest to Christians-Iran, or Iraq are not part of these tours. Visitation to countries such as Iran or Iraq is not recommended by the State Dept for people just to sightsee....recent history provides the reasoning.....in Iran students and individuals are accused of spying and thrown in jail with little proof...
    EPE would never have a tour to Iran or Iraq.
    Like I said if enough people want to go on this tour-the tour will happen-individuals will weigh the situation and decide if they want to go.
    If people decide its unwise or not prudent to go-it will not happen.
    EPE bringing people to visit the Wailing Wall in Israel is not exactly a hostile invading force to either Muslims or Jews!
    I think perhaps somehow the importance of a group of people going to visit Israel is being over dramatized-I do not think dark forces of evil are waiting to pounce because Elvis fans have invaded the Middle East nor that Middle Easteners who enjoy Elvis music will suddenly turn against him or his music because other people who enjoy his music want to come and spend money in their region...........that said........I repeat that the Middle East can be dangerous, just as literally any place in the world can be in todays society-but if tours go to Israel all the time from many differing groups.....I do not see anymore danger to an EPE tour group than to Pat Boones, or Robertsons, or Falwells groups etc... who tour there year after year...as for fallout of the trip?-EPE polarizing people in Islamic countries....the people who want to be... are already polarized against any and all influences other than their own-and the reasonable people can not be polarized and will pay no mind.
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  7. #47

    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Holy Land tours usually mean going specifically to Israel and certain sites of Biblical interest to Christians-Iran, or Iraq are not part of these tours. Visitation to countries such as Iran or Iraq is not recommended by the State Dept for people just to sightsee....recent history provides the reasoning.....in Iran students and individuals are accused of spying and thrown in jail with little proof...
    EPE would never have a tour to Iran or Iraq.
    Like I said if enough people want to go on this tour-the tour will happen-individuals will weigh the situation and decide if they want to go.
    If people decide its unwise or not prudent to go-it will not happen.
    EPE bringing people to visit the Wailing Wall in Israel is not exactly a hostile invading force to either Muslims or Jews!
    I think perhaps somehow the importance of a group of people going to visit Israel is being over dramatized-I do not think dark forces of evil are waiting to pounce because Elvis fans have invaded the Middle East nor that Middle Easteners who enjoy Elvis music will suddenly turn against him or his music because other people who enjoy his music want to come and spend money in their region...........that said........I repeat that the Middle East can be dangerous, just as literally any place in the world can be in todays society-but if tours go to Israel all the time from many differing groups.....I do not see anymore danger to an EPE tour group than to Pat Boones, or Robertsons, or Falwells groups etc... who tour there year after year...as for fallout of the trip?-EPE polarizing people in Islamic countries....the people who want to be... are already polarized against any and all influences other than their own-and the reasonable people can not be polarized and will pay no mind.
    Why is it that every time I make a post or thread, you nit pick at each one of them trying to find the wrongs instead of the rights? You are right though. We do NOT see eye to eye on these issues. But that doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong. It just gets irritating having to try to justify my posts all the time.
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  8. #48
    TCB Mafia KPM's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivaelvis View Post
    Why is it that every time I make a post or thread, you nit pick at each one of them trying to find the wrongs instead of the rights? You are right though. We do NOT see eye to eye on these issues. But that doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong. It just gets irritating having to try to justify my posts all the time.
    I do not nit pick-but if something is wrong I will make comment on it, because you and I do seem to disagree on so much-I just do not find many "rights"
    The idea of posting on threads is to read what someone posts and if you agree or have something to add, you do so....if you don't and you truely disagree, or know something is incorrect then you have to also do that.
    Heres an example-you claim that your post on EPE finding the Koran in their archives in 2001 is not "hearsay" but it is just that.
    Legally it is hearsay...I pointed this out because it is incorrect...not because it was you who posted it, not because I nit pick....because the statement was not correct. If someone tells you something that you do not have direct eye witness knowledge of.....it is hearsay.
    Why should I bother to worry about such things, because I'm sure you, me and everyone here wants things to be accurate.
    If I make a claim and it is not correct I fully expect to be told about it and proof given of how I goofed or am misinformed.
    Thats why it is pretty second nature here to ask-"where did that story or bit of information come from"...the internet is a great place to learn things but its also a great place to be misinformed on any subject you care to name.
    Its not personal-we just have totally different points of view.
    You seem to be interested in things which point out perceived bad moves, gaffs, missteps, or greed of EPE, also the expansion Apollo or Sillermn and how it is so important, etc...........we just are at opposite ends on those subjects and approaches to them.
    I am curious did you ever post here under a different name-I feel we have had this type discussion before-or maybe changed your name to Viva Elvis and I just never noticed the change?
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  9. #49
    International Level Cliff's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivaelvis View Post
    Why is it that every time I make a post or thread, you nit pick at each one of them trying to find the wrongs instead of the rights? You are right though. We do NOT see eye to eye on these issues. But that doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong. It just gets irritating having to try to justify my posts all the time.
    Well said.
    I must,at this point, make an apology. It seems that I was under the impression that this was a tour by the TCB Band etc. I guess I was/am guilty of seeing the word tour and jumping to conclusions,not realizing it was tour groups.
    This puts a whole new light on my thinking but does not alter my views.
    I guess I'm asking myself now is "Why is EPE getting into the tourist business?"
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I do not nit pick-but if something is wrong I will make comment on it, because you and I do seem to disagree on so much-I just do not find many "rights"
    The idea of posting on threads is to read what someone posts and if you agree or have something to add, you do so....if you don't and you truely disagree, or know something is incorrect then you have to also do that.
    Heres an example-you claim that your post on EPE finding the Koran in their archives in 2001 is not "hearsay" but it is just that.
    Legally it is hearsay...I pointed this out because it is incorrect...not because it was you who posted it, not because I nit pick....because the statement was not correct. If someone tells you something that you do not have direct eye witness knowledge of.....it is hearsay.
    Why should I bother to worry about such things, because I'm sure you, me and everyone here wants things to be accurate.
    If I make a claim and it is not correct I fully expect to be told about it and proof given of how I goofed or am misinformed.
    Thats why it is pretty second nature here to ask-"where did that story or bit of information come from"...the internet is a great place to learn things but its also a great place to be misinformed on any subject you care to name.
    Its not personal-we just have totally different points of view.
    You seem to be interested in things which point out perceived bad moves, gaffs, missteps, or greed of EPE, also the expansion Apollo or Sillermn and how it is so important, etc...........we just are at opposite ends on those subjects and approaches to them.
    I am curious did you ever post here under a different name-I feel we have had this type discussion before-or maybe changed your name to Viva Elvis and I just never noticed the change?
    Ken, let's just agree to disagree. Because you and I obviously do NOT see things the same way. It could be an age gap or something else, I don't know. But since I have been here you have question ALL of my posts. Now you ask if I posted under another name. That tells me all I need to know.
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  11. #51

    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Well said.
    I must,at this point, make an apology. It seems that I was under the impression that this was a tour by the TCB Band etc. I guess I was/am guilty of seeing the word tour and jumping to conclusions,not realizing it was tour groups.
    This puts a whole new light on my thinking but does not alter my views.
    I guess I'm asking myself now is "Why is EPE getting into the tourist business?"
    I have noticed that since EPE was sold to CKX back in 2005 that their decision making has been suspect at times. Now with yet a new ownership under Apollo it seems to be even more controversial and questionable. No tell ing what is coming next. EPE takes fans on a tour of Germany?

    What I, as a fan of the man, would like to see them do is PROMOTE the MAN more than just the IMAGE.
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  12. #52
    TCB Mafia KPM's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivaelvis View Post
    Ken, let's just agree to disagree. Because you and I obviously do NOT see things the same way. It could be an age gap or something else, I don't know. But since I have been here you have question ALL of my posts. Now you ask if I posted under another name. That tells me all I need to know.
    An age gap-yes I'm sure we have and age gap-but do not misunderstand that to mean-fuzzy minded or uniformed.
    The question about you posting under a different name-or did you change your name and use to post under another-is a legit question....people have changed their screen names before and it goes unnoticed.
    Not sure what my asking that question tells you my friend.
    If you make a claim-that is totally new, such as the Ali/Koran mention-people will ask you about it, question your source and if you have a convincing answer you will change minds.
    Some things are subjective-they are dealt with on a very personal basis-such as best song, best jumpsuit, best period of Elvis career......other things are philosophical..... his religious beliefs, his inner conflicts, his fears, his doubts....and we all may have differing opinions.
    But when it comes to the Koran story-their is one right answer and one wrong answer it is not subjective you do understand that.
    You brought up the story-you brought up the Koran and Ali and the saying "definitively" the Koran was in EPEs archives, and was given to Elvis by Ali.
    Come on think about it that is going to be questioned on any Elvis forum-not just by me or JR and others.

    You claim it is not "hearsay" when you did not actually see the Koran in EPEs archives, your unnamed source did not see the Koran in EPEs archives but a staffer told your source and he told you??? I have explained what hearsay evidence is-you ignore that. How did the meaning of hearsay come into the thread-because you claimed your story was not hearsay-you brought it into the discussion.
    Give and take thats what we do when we debate -but somethings are not gray, they are black or white concrete answers which are not debateable and if you make a statement that is not known-someone is going to question it and its accuracy. Its not personal, its not nit picking to want any knowledge you may gain on Elvis to be as accurate as possible.

    I am a stickler for accurate details, you may claim thats "an age gap" I am a stickler for accurate sourcing....I am unsure as to why that is somehow a bad thing.
    You are obviously younger than me-but I would not stereotype you by making any judgements on how that affects your posts or your reasoning
    When (and if) you and I agree upon something I will say so gladly-I think a few times in the past we have agreed on a few things......but when we do not-I will also state so and why...others can judge if I am fair.
    Remember its not personal.
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  13. #53
    TCB Mafia KPM's Avatar
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivaelvis View Post
    I have noticed that since EPE was sold to CKX back in 2005 that their decision making has been suspect at times. Now with yet a new ownership under Apollo it seems to be even more controversial and questionable. No tell ing what is coming next. EPE takes fans on a tour of Germany? What I, as a fan of the man, would like to see them do is PROMOTE the MAN more than just the IMAGE.
    Germany is a beautiful country, I have a friend who actually did visit the neighborhood Elvis lived in during his Army days-he was himself in the service stationed near Berlin so he did not have to make a special trip overseas.
    I doubt that a Tour of Germany is forthcoming by EPE-I'm sure you do also.

    I ask you how would you "Promote the man not the Image" if you were calling the shots?
    You do not own the music, you do not own the films, Sony will not sell, Warners will not even talk joint collaboration on EOT or TTWII, so tell me how you would Promote the Man. I am interested.
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  14. #54
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    Re: The Elvis Holy Land Experience-what's your take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Well said.
    I must,at this point, make an apology. It seems that I was under the impression that this was a tour by the TCB Band etc. I guess I was/am guilty of seeing the word tour and jumping to conclusions,not realizing it was tour groups.
    This puts a whole new light on my thinking but does not alter my views.
    I guess I'm asking myself now is "Why is EPE getting into the tourist business?"
    EPE is in the tourist business now for 35 years, sorry but that is the truth of the matter.
    I hate repeating myself so all who have heard this please forgive me-they do not own the music, they do not own the films they get no artist royaltees for the bulk of Elvis's music catalogue..... so they have no creative control over anything which was the creative spirit of Elvis Presley-they make little profit from the "creative life of Elvis Presley" and they did not create that situation....that is the situation that they inherited when Elvis died and later Vernon. The tourist and trinket business was all they had to market-and that is what they did to protect the estate.

    Even the clips used in the traveling "Elvis In Concert" from EOT and TTWII must be licensed thru Warners and Sony to use.
    Some have implied EPE has not tried to buy the music or films-85% of the image of Elvis was worth $100 million cash and substantial stock in CKX to Lisa-so how much would the music of Elvis be worth if bought lock stock and barrel???? Priceless is the answer.
    Perhaps the bulk of the films are not as valuble as the music but still its hundreds of millions in value scattered among several companies...who do not wish to sell.
    That is why for 35 years they have been in the tourist and trinket business.
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