Reply With QuoteGreat posts "The King's Queen" I surely do agree with all the above posts of yours and 4THEHEART.. you are so correct in your post. Elvis was not a sap but he was naive. Dovey
know what only thing I'm say is Who what's know He Was SAP or not, He Was A person Liked All us. that it
King's Queen, I think you said it best........thank you.
Diane
You're forgetting another sub category: the "the only ones whoOriginally Posted by srj1967
No it doesn't. God, you're such an *****!!!
Seriously, interesting post.
You're right about the two camps thing though: the "Elvis did nothing wrong, anyone who said anything negative about him should rot in hell" camp, as opposed to the "Elvis was responsible for his own destiny, we weren't there so we won't presume to judge other people's actions" camp.
I'll be interested to see how the people from the "Elvis was practically a saint" group respond to your intriguing postulation that, because he surrounded himself with all these "sellouts" and "money grubbers" he must have therefore ben a sap.
Your idea makes one think. Nice one.
tell the truth and nothing but the whole truth, are Lisa Marie
and Priscilla" groupies. They're half and half in their opinion on
Elvis. He was a fantastic father but could've been better for
Priscilla and he and Priscilla would have gotten back together
and lived happily ever after since she was the only woman he
loved next to his mother.......
Hmmm, that's what I mean: even though Priscilla, especially
in the years between the divorce and his death, said some
pretty degrading and revealing things about him. Things she
now pretends to have never said.
I applaud those of the MM who have called her out, though few
they are. I know Elvis' part-time drummer Larry Londen (sp)
knew exactly what she was made off, as did several others
who were longer with Elvis.
I'm sorry, but I never really blamed Sonny and Red for their
part in the "bodyguard book", not as much as Hebler.
Sure, they could have and should have done something about
the downhill slide of Elvis at a much earlier stage, but I also
believe there was some truth in their words at that now
infamous press conference when they said they hoped the
book would serve as a wake-up call. The timing was just
wrong and obviously, so was the effect of the book.
Elvis accepted a lot, from many people, for most of his life. So,
yes, he would have accepted it. Not because he didn't mind,
not because he was a sap, but because going against stuff
would stir up the pot even more. He wanted to keep his
secrets a secret, and you know: that still goes. Word is, that
one of the reasons why the upstairs at Graceland is not open
for the public is not just for privacy sake or because it is
now used as storage, but because if they - as Priscilla always
claims - would show it the way it was at the time of his death,
it would probably not be a pretty picture, unless it was shown
in a sanitized (read: altered history) version.
I don't think fans have the right to know or see everything
of and about their idols, but I'm REALLY against presenting
altered truths, and that's what Priscilla and co are guilty of.
That's not the same as keeping secrets.
I think Elvis would be opposed as much against stuff
Priscilla is pulling now as he would be against those who
spilled the beans on some of his bad habits and strange
behavior (which would still include Priscilla between 1972
and 1977).
I do believe, too, that Elvis' sense of loyalty had a lot to do
with it, as well as a need for security.
His loyalty to Red is easily explained: his protector since
high school. Sonny was Red's next of kin and that was important
to Elvis, too. After all, he included his cousins in his entourage,
too, even though they had no particularly useful skills.
Elvis was very much a "heart" person. If you did something
nice for him, he'd remember you and try to make good with
you. Charlie consoled him on the boat to Germany after his
mom's death, so Charlie had to be rewarded. Joe helped
out keeping the finances in the early days, so Joe had to
have a place, too.
The West's I think he especially kept around because Gladys
had also known them. It all had a sentimental reason.
Does that make him a sap? No, because if so, then everybody
who calls anybody a friend is one.
Well put. I always hate these psychology types, these experts
on shows like Oprah and Dr. Phil who claim that nothing happens
in your life that you don't want to happen or that you can be
anything you want to be, if you want it badly enough. Crap, if
ever I heard anything. I bet the homeless people must all
have had the secret desire to end in the gutter, too
I think Elvis, like most of us, made choices he thought were
best at the time he made them. And I'm sure even his
addiction to prescription drugs started off that way, way
back in the army: "gotta take these benzadrines or I'll
freeze to death on my watch in these sub zero German
winter nights....". The only problem with making such a
choice is that substances like that create an increasing
need, thus addiction. And any choices made while intoxicated
or addicted are obviously choices made by a sub par mind.
Same goes for his choices with people.
Parker must have seemed perfect to advance his career,
and up to a point, he was. Staying loyal to his friends and
employing them must have given him comfort in the
early days, but may have stifled his development
socially and culturally. Choosing a gorgeous, underage,
girl for a companion must have looked good in the
beginning. Who knew she'd take his "I'm gonna marry
you some day" seriously and keep him to it? I bet
Ms. Beaulieu wasn't the first girl he said that too, or
the last for that matter. But little girls grow up and
get a will of their own.
Personally I think he wasn't the marrying kind, not
until later in life that is. Of course nobody knew there
would never be a "later in life" for him, but I have
a feeling that if he'd married past 40 or 50 (had he
lived that long) he would have been mentally
ready for such a commitment.
Had he married at the age he did in real life, then
a more traditional "stay at home mom, support
father the breadwinner" type of woman would
probably have been the best for him. It would not
have stopped his wandering ways, but he might
have found his home more of a peaceful retreat
than it was with the ambitious Priscilla, who
wanted a career of her own (first in fashion, then
in modelling - even as far back as the late sixties
and early seventies).
The biggest mystery in Elvis' life and career will
always be why he stayed with Parker.
There are those who think Parker must have known
even more dark and terrible secrets of Elvis, and
that he used those as leverage. We'll never know.
Yet, had he cut himself free of Parker, who knows
if he'd been able to quit his addictions and
start with a clean slate?
It has not to do with not having faith in Elvis' judgement,
not only anyway. It's a combination of things.
Nobody's life changed more than Elvis', at least, that's what
many of the "Elvis did nothing wrong" school like to use as
an excuse for Elvis' behavior and subsequent choices, or
lack thereoff. But what about, for instance, the West cousins?
Don't you think their lives changed? They and Elvis were all
blue collar, poor boys/young men that were suddenly
thrust into a whirlwind of attention and a whole new
environment. Of course, Elvis was the main attraction and
the one who were the reason they were there in the first
place, but still: they all came from the same background
and they all entered a world and lifestyle they could never
ever have imagined back in high school.
People change, with age, anyway. But when your whole
environment, outlook and means of making a living changes,
it's only the very strong who will not let that get to them.
So, did Elvis have poor judgement when he surrounded
himself with these people? No. Did they all change, when
their lives changed? Probably. Stories are plenty that
Elvis could at times, be it under the influence of medication
or whatever, show a mean streak to his friends, now
employees. Make them feel in sometimes unneccesary
demeaning ways who was boss. I'm sure that caused
(a lot of) resentment that (may have) resulted in
paybacks.
I think the only reason why nobody ever walked away
after such treatment, or walked away when Elvis got
really bad, was because for the better part he still was
their mealticket (though they often held other jobs
whenever Elvis didn't need them) and because of
their association with him, people knew who they were,
too. Despite everything, it was still worthwhile to be
associated with Elvis.
When the Wests were finally fired they did something
that was despised, probably mostly because of its timing
and the alleged effect it had on Elvis: his death.
However, if they'd had the courage to walk away earlier
and written their book and had Elvis - as they claim was
their desire - been shocked back into reality and cleaned
himself up, they would now have been regarded as his
saviors and perhaps Elvis would - in his own loyal way -
have rehired and rewarded them for saving his life.
All a big theory of course, but it shows how indeed
nobody is an island and that not just one's own choices,
but also choices that others make, can influence the
direction of one's life and that people themselves, indeed,
change as much as their choices and judgement changes.
Sorry for the much too long response.
Last edited by Cherokee; 08-18-2007 at 09:20 AM.
I agree..100 % On That One ! I believe it was a 'wake up call' but ufortunately it didn't work !Hmmm, that's what I mean: even though Priscilla, especially
in the years between the divorce and his death, said some
pretty degrading and revealing things about him. Things she
now pretends to have never said.
I applaud those of the MM who have called her out, though few
they are. I know Elvis' part-time drummer Larry Londen (sp)
knew exactly what she was made off, as did several others
who were longer with Elvis.
I'm sorry, but I never really blamed Sonny and Red for their
part in the "bodyguard book", not as much as Hebler.
Sure, they could have and should have done something about
the downhill slide of Elvis at a much earlier stage, but I also
believe there was some truth in their words at that now
infamous press conference when they said they hoped the
book would serve as a wake-up call. The timing was just
wrong and obviously, so was the effect of the book.
The mm told so many stories l don't even know if they remember everything they say. Take alook at the show about elvis last days, all the mm put elvis down so much and made him look really bad, so if thats what friends are for then maybe elvis was better off without them.
Last edited by presley31; 08-18-2007 at 09:05 AM.
Wow..you said it all..Thanks soo much, you made soooo much sense ! I agree with you too !The bottom line for me is that Elvis made some decisions, and some were made for him. Whether you believe that or not, it is true. He did not have full control over his life, not in every aspect. Elvis knew that a lot of people depended on him, financially speaking, and that kept his hands tied in a lot of ways. There is a saying..."every action causes a reaction"... Could it be possible that Elvis felt as if his life had gotten so out of control, that he chose to control it in his own way...? By hiding out in his room for days at a time...taking meds to the point of addiction, perhaps?...ect, ect, ect.
This is a life. A wonderful life in some ways, and yet, a controlled environment too. I feel sorry for Elvis, because he was such a private person, and yet so many who were close to him have CHOSEN to disclose his life in THEIR words. Let us not forget that Elvis cannot defend himself now. Which apparently is causing some of his fans to be catagorized as an "Elvis was practically a saint" group...because we choose NOT to believe every single thing that was written or said about him...which is unfair. I do not think he was a saint, with no wrongs, or no flaws of his own. That would be ignorant. I do however feel that each and every person, past or present, has flaws. And that allows me to believe that yes, some of the people around him were there because of what he could do for THEM. How well they disguised that intention would be the answer to the "Was Elvis a Sap" question. I think it's safe to say that perhaps all of us have at one time or another been taken advantage of by someone we trusted or cared for. Would that make us all "saps"...? I don't think so. It just makes us human. And being human means that we are all subject to fall prey to those who are deceitful.
We know that Elvis was Starting to cleaning house that summer in 1977 it was to late.
He was to fried Tom Parker that year , we know that cilla and Lisa Marie sue Tom Parker in 1982.
I think that Elvis Was lost In his own little World that that few years, and one person say how yo u can help someone don't what help. and i got sister is liked that, we stop give up help her, but we still love her . i will edit more to this
I have often thought he would have been better served if he had not hired friends and people who he thought were friends. One of his friends who had known him since he first moved to Memphis claims in the book "Elvis Up Close"
that at one point in the 50s Elvis asked if he would like to work for him. He told him flat out no. ELvis said oh come on we'll have a lot of fun. The guy told Elvis he knew in his heart it would change their friendship and he did not want that. So Elvis accepted his no and understood. It changes both sides of the equation to go from friend-to employee. The fun and good times is which usually brings people together is now shaded by the employee/employer relationship.
So I think Elvis was in error when he hired friends, I'll say that. But its easy to see why he did it.
This was a point I made earlier about the sudden great fame and his little control over how it changed his life. The insecurities he had were multiplied 1000 times by the huge fame and all it thrust him into. Now some will say thats making an excuse for him, IMO its not. He had no more power to control insecurities than anyone else. Some people overcome them over time, some get therapy(been there) some just pretend they do not have them. Maybe because I have had some problems in my life which I have had to deal with which makes me see how these mental things are really not totally of your making. Your life starts with you having little control over what is happening-yet it shades your thinking and reactions for the rest of your life. Your family gene pool leaves its mark good or bad. You can not just decide- I am going to the doctor and get this trait or tendency removed like a bad tooth. Now if you do not believe this-you think every person should be able to over come what ever has shaped their life then you will say "He is the only one at fault" (most shrinks and gene researchers will disagree but its your right to not agree)
Finally I will add I think Elvis could at times be a sap-he is not immune to that. Neither are you or I. Just human with every frailty that is included in that word. IMO
Last edited by KPM; 08-18-2007 at 02:26 PM.
Good point!
I wonder...Since some have probably catagorized ME as being in the "Elvis was practically a saint" group, I have but one question...
Have you ever sat down and actually counted the "money grubbers", most of whom were so-called friends, that have emerged since Elvis' death??
Seems to be pretty self-explanatory to me....
I find it disturbing that people think that anything like this can be so black or white. To me, there are many grey area's. For example...Colonel Parker. Who can honestly say that they think that he ALWAYS had Elvis' best interest in mind?? Is that black and white also??? Does he fall into the "money grubber" category?
How about the MM??? Did Elvis not feel betrayed by the book that was published before his death? And, do you not believe that it came as a direct result of anger, for having been fired???
I could go on and on and on...but why???
The bottom line for me is that Elvis made some decisions, and some were made for him. Whether you believe that or not, it is true. He did not have full control over his life, not in every aspect. Elvis knew that a lot of people depended on him, financially speaking, and that kept his hands tied in a lot of ways. There is a saying..."every action causes a reaction"... Could it be possible that Elvis felt as if his life had gotten so out of control, that he chose to control it in his own way...? By hiding out in his room for days at a time...taking meds to the point of addiction, perhaps?...ect, ect, ect.
This is a life. A wonderful life in some ways, and yet, a controlled environment too. I feel sorry for Elvis, because he was such a private person, and yet so many who were close to him have CHOSEN to disclose his life in THEIR words. Let us not forget that Elvis cannot defend himself now. Which apparently is causing some of his fans to be catagorized as an "Elvis was practically a saint" group...because we choose NOT to believe every single thing that was written or said about him...which is unfair. I do not think he was a saint, with no wrongs, or no flaws of his own. That would be ignorant. I do however feel that each and every person, past or present, has flaws. And that allows me to believe that yes, some of the people around him were there because of what he could do for THEM. How well they disguised that intention would be the answer to the "Was Elvis a Sap" question. I think it's safe to say that perhaps all of us have at one time or another been taken advantage of by someone we trusted or cared for. Would that make us all "saps"...?I don't think so. It just makes us human. And being human means that we are all subject to fall prey to those who are deceitful.
Just my opinion...hope no one is offended...
Dearest Queenie,
I wish I could have expressed myself as well as you just did.
Wonderful, thoughtful, insightful words.
Thank you my special friend.
Hugs,
Kimmi
I'm sure that Elvis could perfectly judge people very well, but like me he only saw the good things in people and that is what was his mistake. I sincerely believe he loved Prisilla very much and also some guys around him. He also knew that there were people taking advantage of him and people that were depending on him. I know he wasn't a saint, but when you only see the good things in people you don't expect that they betray you. Maybe it sounds weard or strange but I'm just the same and I have had bad expierences too, still I haven't learned. Luckely I have a sweatheart who watches over me and warns me. Something that Elvis didn't have. We can't turn back the time, but I think that we all (if we had the chance) would do things differently if we had to do things over again.
Christel (TCE)
Last edited by TCE; 08-18-2007 at 04:43 PM. Reason: improvement
Wow, you all have alot of good points. I don't blame anyone in particular for Elvis' demise and downward spiral. i think Elvis was always this "lonely boy from Tupelo" who was always looking to be accepted even after he became famous. I don't think he knew how to handle it and I think that those around him tried to do what was best for him - but were also afraid if they tried to help him - tell him maybe to lay off the pills, etc. they were afraid of losing their jobs. It's been said more than once that E. had a temper. I just finished reading Jerry Schilling's book - and I would recommend it to you all - gave some great insight - as he to had to leave the MM and quit working for Elvis because he got tired of "living off" Elvis...wanted to make a life of his own and keep Elvis as a friend....he felt guilty most times for things Elvis would give him - but Elvis if he bought something for 1 member of MM - he'd buy for all - can you imagine how many thousands if not millions of dollars he went through? I think it all boils down to him wanting their acceptance and sort of like he was buying their friendship for them to stick around.....I think losing his mom hurt him more than anything and he never got over it. Priscilla and other girlfriends said he needed to be tended to like a child - and I believe that.......I think he was always striving for acceptance.....not sure if this all makes sense - but you can't really blame anyone it was a number of things - and Elvis himself is the one who ultimately made the decisons to: #1 keep taking pills - #2 stay with Col. Parker and not stand up to him about playing in Europe - starring in "Star Is Born" and making his Karate documentary that he wanted to make for years.....#3 - could not remain a faithful husband or boyfriend for that matter. #4 - kept touring even when his health declined so badly - I think he was afraid if he stayed home and tended to his health maybe "we'd" forget about him and he liked feeling loved by all.......
Okay, those are my thoughts...if you've made it this far then I'm glad - lots of reading....
Regardless - I love Elvis and always will.....
Good thread Jak
I don't think Elvis was a sap, I don't think he was invulnerable either. I believe that the relationship with his friends as employee's was a difficult one that simply broke down in the 70's with neither side being able to overcome some of the barriers that prevented them from being open and honest enough with each other to resolve the issues surrounding them.
Elvis was the leader of the pack, the guys followed him in so many ways e.g. the women, the medication, so how do you pull someone from a precipice when you are stood there with them? I certainly don't believe all the b/s the MM have said over the years, although I think you will agree there are elements or kernels of truth. One of the issues I have with certain members of the fandom is how the can pick and choose the truths they believe. It is done in such a short sighted and narrow way to suit their perfect vision they have of Elvis!
There are those who will absolutely despise the MM, I just cannot understand this? Elvis had these guys around him night and day for many years, I'm pretty sure that he had them pegged for what they were, if these guys rocked the boat they were history......... Elvis didn't want people to challenge the status quo.
There is definitely a balance that has to be struck when trying to understand the life of Elvis Presley, there is so much information from every conceivable person and angle. If you can come away with a realistic scenario that Elvis was basically a good guy who had a lot of sh*t to deal with for one human being, some of it he handled really well, some of it he handled really badly. On the whole Elvis got a raw deal from those around him, but only because he couldn't acknowledge he needed help himself.
I often wonder how those people who were around Elvis can sleep, I'm not blaming them for his death as that is too simplistic and a cop out.
I would lay awake at night and wonder what I could have done to change a tragic end to a life that shone so brightly, I'm sure some of them do, whilst others...............?
No, but I'm sure the total of my list would be different to yours and everyone else on here. Look at the debates we've been having about Ginger. She is certainly not a money-grubber, IMO, but some believe she is / was ...
quote-I would lay awake at night and wonder what I could have done to change a tragic end to a life that shone so brightly, I'm sure some of them do, whilst others...............?
Its the what ifs of life which eat at your soul. Everyone has at least one I'm sure.
I'll tell you a by product of all the Elvis books over the last 30 years. Most celebrities now have many of their employees, and management teams sign a legal agreement when they are hired-they have to agree to not write about or comment on their relationship with the celebrities they work for. So Elvis pioneered another path in show business.
Last edited by KPM; 08-19-2007 at 12:54 PM.
To me the person who started this thread..Is Elvis a Sap.. must be looking in the mirro or just looking to cause trouble. This is so disgraceful to write on an Elvis forum. Elvis was no angel and neither was or is anybody else.
If I'm not mistaken, Priscilla also had Marco Garibaldi - her longtime
life partner and father of her son - sign a similar agreement.......
I've been thinking a lot about Marco and Navarone, lately, especially
in this special anniversary year. I know they split up, at least, that's
the last I heard about that, but they'd been together for at least 20
years.....
Obviously your comments show you are unable to properly read and digest my words.You are the exact kind of fan Im talking about.If you would read correctly you would see that I am defending Elvis from the likes of you.You are the ones who disgrace him.You and others portray him as the poor victim getting pulled along on his leash.I dont believe he was the spineless baby you people want him to be.Im not one of those who think he cried himself to sleep every night talking to Gladys and Jesse garon.To call this thread a disgrace shows the intellect that exists in the Elvis world.
Jak
c'mon Jak..this is too much of an exaggeration for fans who have some mercy on him and not always blaming him for everything that went wrong in his life...I wonder if any other person was able to smile and laugh as much as Elvis was,and enjoy smallest things and moments on earth,first of all as an enlightened spirit as he was in a rather young age don't think spent time crying for himself.And very naturally he knew what he was doing too..but if things are not just white and black in your thoughts,you can see,nor the time he lived, not the people around him, bussiness wise and others as well, not the society was ready to use his whole capacity and they couldn't..simply Elvis was a thing many didn't get what to do with him..to a point this could make him a victim but not a cry baby..he was here when nothing and no one was ready for him..I'm not sure if anything changed since..
I agree with your post 100%. Trying to understand and digest information from all the different angles is a must. Its not accepting other info which may apply that limits your getting the whole picture of him. IMO I see him as a super talented bright chrismatic guy who had insecurities which were magnified by his huge worldwide fame. I tried to point out some people overcome insecurities over time, some get therapy and overcome them-some try to ignore them or handle them alone. I see a man who tried to handle them alone. IMOGood thread Jak
I don't think Elvis was a sap, I don't think he was invulnerable either. I believe that the relationship with his friends as employee's was a difficult one that simply broke down in the 70's with neither side being able to overcome some of the barriers that prevented them from being open and honest enough with each other to resolve the issues surrounding them.
Elvis was the leader of the pack, the guys followed him in so many ways e.g. the women, the medication, so how do you pull someone from a precipice when you are stood there with them? I certainly don't believe all the b/s the MM have said over the years, although I think you will agree there are elements or kernels of truth. One of the issues I have with certain members of the fandom is how the can pick and choose the truths they believe. It is done in such a short sighted and narrow way to suit their perfect vision they have of Elvis!
There are those who will absolutely despise the MM, I just cannot understand this? Elvis had these guys around him night and day for many years, I'm pretty sure that he had them pegged for what they were, if these guys rocked the boat they were history......... Elvis didn't want people to challenge the status quo.
There is definitely a balance that has to be struck when trying to understand the life of Elvis Presley, there is so much information from every conceivable person and angle. If you can come away with a realistic scenario that Elvis was basically a good guy who had a lot of sh*t to deal with for one human being, some of it he handled really well, some of it he handled really badly. On the whole Elvis got a raw deal from those around him, but only because he couldn't acknowledge he needed help himself.
I often wonder how those people who were around Elvis can sleep, I'm not blaming them for his death as that is too simplistic and a cop out.
I would lay awake at night and wonder what I could have done to change a tragic end to a life that shone so brightly, I'm sure some of them do, whilst others...............?
His family on both sides were prone to addictions and he could have inherited that. I do not blame him for his insecurities or what he may have inherited from his gene pool. A lot of people do not think of mental insecurity problems as real. The same with the inherited predilections idea-its funny we admit we can inherit eye color, hair color, height and weight tendencies- physical attributes, but not the things we can not see. Its easier to say "He could have changed"
Well I can tell you from experience without the proper help those problems do not go away, they do not get better-they get worse. I have been lucky and I count my blessings every day. 4 suicides in my family in the last couple generations(including my father and 2 uncles)-alcohol and drug problems on both sides of my family tree. I have paid very close attention to gene mapping research and each year they find more evidence of how these things are inherited.
I did not overcome my problems alone. I was not strong enough. Elvis was not strong enough. I do not condemn him for that.
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