The Elvis weight/apearance debate ... a continuation

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

11-24-2007, 06:04 PM
Getlo

The Elvis weight/appearance debate ... a continuation

Okay, this thread is for those that have become a little precious about the "hijacking" of the You fans of 1977 concerts thread ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

this will be my final response to said individual.

Bet it won't be. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

I don't know if this thread can survive, but at least I'll have cleared a few things up along the way. Elvis and his fans often have their dignity stripped -- or often have their dignity attempt to be stripped -- away from them, and it's most insidious when other fans are the ones doing it. I never like seeing that; pardon my passion, which has taken me on this course.

Oh, you're pardoned. But your smugness is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

I honestly think you're winding me up,

I am responding to your and others' threads. The fact that you are wound up has nothing to do with me, nor does it concern me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

This is my final response to you. I hope people of intelligence can see what you're up to; if not, congratulations -- mission accomplished.

Still betting it won't be your final response. As for intelligent people seeing what I'm up to ... well, you'll just have to ask jak, stryx, and utmom (among others) themselves. (y)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

You hassled MojoElvis by posing the same question twice, ignoring his new statements in your second response merely so you could restate the original question. I see that as harassment, but you are free to define it your own way.

I asked if he was indeed referring to AYLT. Why is that hassling him? And isn't it his decision to determine if he's being hassled, or do you presume to speak on his behalf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

MojoElvis appears to be referring to the 1961 Hawaii concert, not the 1973 Hawaii concert, especially as "Are You Lonesome Tonight" was performed in the former, but not the latter.

So, Mojo ... that's Mojo, not Cryogenic ... which was it? Can I ask for clarification once more, or is that constituted as "hassling"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

I linked this song to "Aloha" only to say it wasn't performed there, since your response to MojoElvis' post seemed to imply it was.

What are you on about here? You INFERRED this from my statement! WHERE ... please, please, PLEASE!!!! ... tell me and the other posters WHERE I implied this? Once again: MojoElvis said Elvis joked around in AYLT, the same as he did in 1968 and Aloha. *

See upcoming post.
I did not believe or imply for one second that Mojo meant that Elvis performed AYLT in Hawaii. YOU misread my second response and claimed that I was implying this ... which I wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

MojoElvis got the year wrong when he said "The Hawaii Concert In 1960", but he was only off by one year. What's more likely -- that he was referring to another Hawaii-based concert 13 years later where AYLT was never performed, or that he was slightly off in his chronology about a place and venue where AYLT was performed?

Now who's winding up whom? I never mentioned 1960 or 1961; someone else corrected Mojo. I let it go as I figured he'd made an error and meant Hawaii 1961. And once again ... I DID NOT LINK AYLT WITH ALOHA. YOU DID!! :blink::blink::blink::mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

But see ...... the "gay" routine is not the demarcation point for serious and non-serious versions; the "gay" routine is only another non-serious permutation that began at a certain point. The argument here is that the non-serious interpretation of the monologue began long ago, just after Elvis first recorded the song, in fact -- at the 1961 Hawaii benefit concert, of which there is an aural record.

And people say that I obsess over certain things!! Listen to yourself ... "the 'gay' routine is not the demarcation point for serious and non-serious versions". There's a demarcation point for these things?? :lmfao::lmfao: Are you suggesting that anyone should waste time discussing the demarcation point about a song becoming serious??? Are you, well, serious??? I do not say for one second there is this "point" where this song is serious or jokey. Either a song is done straight or it's not ... are you really that anal-retentive?

YOU made the statement that the monologues during AYLT were mostly done jokingly. The evidence does not back up what you say. This is not my opinion, my theory, my idea, nor my way or winding you or anyone else up. It is fact. I have most of the pre-1975 versions of AYLT and they were mostly serious versions. I do not count one line purposely messed up as a "jokey" version either. And, if you do, great, fine. Even then, Elvis mostly ... mostly ... performed it straight. If you're talking about '76 and '77, then yes, most if not all versions of the song were made screwing around and having fun.

And you said, "No, I don't think they were (all serious). It may be helpful if a reputable Elvis scholar were to confirm".

Okay, so how about a reputable website?

www.elviscrawler.com

Search under songs, suits and even microphone types (;) - not something in which I am even remotely interested!) on this site.

As it happens, I am a reputable Elvis scholar, and I don't care how arrogant that sounds. Have you contributed information to official and bootleg releases? Written articles for websites about Elvis? Been acknowledged as a contributor in four Elvis books? As I said elsewhere, I do not profess to know more than anyone: for all I know, you Cryogenic may have been a reputable Elvis scholar. Others on here certainly are; many like me, I presume, prefer to keep their anonymity on here. This is not slagging you off for preferring to go to a "reputable" source rather than believe what I say. (I'd encourage anyone on here to find out stuff for themselves). Rather, it is criticism for saying that the information I posted (I'm talking about the objective stuff here too, not the subjective!) is incorrect ... without posting your own sources (AYLT links notwithstanding).

If you have information that contradicts mine, then post it here, so we can dissect it ourselves, do some more research and get to the bottom of any facts, figures and the like.

Personally, I would rather trust a website (or whatever) like the link I posted above, rather than what was, in essence, a blog rabbitting on about some baseless psychological theory about why Elvis shied away from the seriousness of the monologue from AYLT.

(Then there was a 10-line paragraph of yours that kept going on about the AYLT monologue "issue" regarding 1961, to which I'm not even going to respond. I have said all I need to say on this already).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

but I don't think that they were anywhere near as overt as Omaha, and they weren't responsible for Elvis spoofing the monologue or him "forgetting" the words to AYLT, in my opinion. But have whatever negative interpretation you will.

I KNOW you believe this! Great, fine, no worries! I believe otherwise. It is something that cannot be proven either way .. it is subjective! As some others have told me about some other subjects: let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

While your opinions may be based on "the most accurate information" you can obtain, that doesn't make the opinions in and of themselves accurate.

You are priceless. And deliberately playing semantics, trying to make me look bad. Of course I get the most accurate information I can obtain. And it's all readily available others - including yourself! - to peruse. And if info is proven wrong, I replace it with the new version. Perfectly simple, I would have thought. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

The weight issue is a good example . . .

A good example of what? Where I was wrong? Fine. Show me a weight-for-age obesity calculator that doesn't result in Elvis Presley falling into the obese category. Please, post your information here. If you have this info and it proves Elvis was not obese, I will admit that I am wrong, and no longer refer to Elvis as obese.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

That's a lame personal attack. They're generally made when an argument is being lost.

And saying I had stooped to the level of not being an adult wasn't a personal attack? Get real. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Erm ...... I already acknowledged that Elvis tended towards obesity and may have sometimes been obese, but I also specificed that he was only ever clinically obese, never morbidly obese.

And????!!!! I never once mentioned clinical or morbid. YOU DID. :angry: I only mentioned the word obese. Which Elvis was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Be that as it may, given that Elvis was meant to be dieting just prior to his next concert tour, which he was about to embark on when he died, then, while he may have treated himself to something hefty, he was still only getting around half of what he actually required for normal functioning.

I am genuinely glad you're not a doctor, and that you do not have the privilege of giving people medical advice.

Okay, let's assume I'm completely wrong about the calorie intake. Are you suggesting (and please note that I'm asking for clarification rather than coming on here and putting words in your mouth like you have done to me constantly) that, as much as Elvis was eating in his final months, that it was still half ... half, that was your word, right? ... of what he required for normal functioning? I want to be very clear on this, Cryogenic.

Anyone, myself included, can go onto the net or wherever and gather info about Elvis' diet in his last months; so I'd be interested to see your source for this amazing claim about half the calorie intake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Consult Google. Those figures are pure nonsense.

Okay then. My figures are nonsense. So where are your figures? How did you come to your conclusions?

Jak, maybe you want to take this one? Someone? Anyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Moreover, you have failed to provide any evidence for your calorie figures as I originally asked for, which tells me a lot.

Among others:

The Death Of Elvis;
What Happened;
http://www.epicurious.com/gourmet/features/elvis
The books by his cooks etc;
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s689019.htm (Dr Karl is a scientist famous in Australia for scientific trivia etc His sources are listed in his latest book, but not on here).

And plenty of other Net and book sources. I trust you and others on here can find them easily.

Sorry, where were your sources again???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Fortunately, one of us bothers to check facts and even admit when they're wrong.

Yep, and it's me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

Some of your quips and comments in here are testament to your unruly nature,

Or my rapier-like wit. :lol::lmfao:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

and, as already said, NOT BECOMING of an adult in full command of his or her faculties, which you seem to think you are.

Thanks again for not getting personal in your attacks. ;) And, once again everyone, I feel the need to mention that I was not the first person to launch a personal attack - not on this thread, and not on others. I may make comments full of ";)" or ":blink:" when someone says something like "It's pure Elvis in 1977" ... but I do not resort to making cheap shots about their attitude in the first instance. I never, ever get personal first.

(Rest of the post - about 45 lines - launching into me once again. Not worth the effort).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

this will be my final response to said individual.

Mmmm.

Whew!

Okay, after all that, what are the thoughts of others on here (no, not about the to-and-fro between me and the other guy, but about the topic!)

How much do you think Elvis' weight and/or appearance contributed to the level of entertainment in the shows?

Let's hear from others who didn't post on the other thread too.

I promise I don't bite!

ALL opinions welcome.
11-24-2007, 06:58 PM
EP75

This whole thread has argument brewing written all over it.
11-24-2007, 07:06 PM
Cryogenic

Quote:

Originally Posted by EP75

This whole thread has argument brewing written all over it.

Yes, EP75. It does. So Getlo is half right: here I am, making a response, but ONLY because he started a new thread, and if anyone else is reading, then I would just like to present a link to the old thread for posterity, so that they may get a fuller view of the proceedings, and hopefully understand what's happening here:

http://www.tcb-world.com/showthread.php?t=16735

That's all I've come in to say and do. Getlo can talk to himself till the end of time.
11-24-2007, 07:13 PM
franny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Getlo: How much do you think Elvis' weight and/or appearance contributed to the level of entertainment in the shows?

Elvis' weight/appearance was not at the level it should have been, as we all know and I think the way he looked towards the end, bloated and not healthy certainly cant' be compared to his early shows!

I would have to say, unfortunately he was not the Elvis he was :'( and it must have been somewhat sad and even a little shocking to see him in that state, but I still wish I had the chance to see his shows...

franny
11-24-2007, 07:51 PM
KPM

Well its obvious if you are known for a very physical show and you have extra pounds and are not in good shape-the level of movement is reduced.
Added weight reduces your stamina- you tire quicker and breath heavier. Your singing would have to be affected because of the difference in your breathing. I'm not saying good shows were not possible but they were much harder to do and harder on him.
11-24-2007, 08:19 PM
Getlo

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryogenic

So Getlo is half right: here I am, making a response, but ONLY because he started a new thread.

Thank you! (y) At least one of my points has been proven beyond doubt.
:);):)

You can place your figures about obesity here in this thread too, if you like.
11-24-2007, 08:21 PM
Getlo

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by franny

I still wish I had the chance to see his shows...

Absolutely; even the bad ones!
11-25-2007, 02:32 AM
Getlo

.

Well, never let it be said I won't admit my errors.

Upon re-reading the first exchange between myself and MojoElvis, it seems Mojo did in fact talk about joking around during AYLT in Hawaii "1960" and the '68 Special.

On the next response, I did in fact reference Aloha.

So I apologise ... to MojoElvis, not to the other person involved (because of his snide, childish and personal attacks on me ... when I had had no exchanges with him here on the threads).

So, let me restate to MojoElvis: what is your criteria for comparing the "joking around" in AYLT during In Concert to Hawaii 1961 or the '68 Comeback?

I stand by everything else in my recent posts to the student, Mr/Ms Cryogenic.
11-25-2007, 03:19 AM
jak

Quote:

Originally Posted by franny

Elvis' weight/appearance was not at the level it should have been, as we all know and I think the way he looked towards the end, bloated and not healthy certainly cant' be compared to his early shows!

I would have to say, unfortunately he was not the Elvis he was :'( and it must have been somewhat sad and even a little shocking to see him in that state, but I still wish I had the chance to see his shows...

franny

I think these comments pretty much sum it up.This certainly is a touchy issue with some.I think it's beyond obvious that Elvis was overweight at times.It also came to a point that his stunning good looks certainly suffered as he looked very unhealthy for much at the time at the end.For whatever reasons.A bad colon or drug abuse or whatever it was.During this time his performances suffered badly.He gave some extremely poor concerts.I dont think anybody that has a bit of common sense can argue those points.Anyone that claims the opposite was true doesnt know much about Elvis.Im not saying these things to be hurtfull.I just cant ignore the obvious.
Jak
11-25-2007, 04:58 AM
elvislady

Quote:

Originally Posted by franny

Elvis' weight/appearance was not at the level it should have been, as we all know and I think the way he looked towards the end, bloated and not healthy certainly cant' be compared to his early shows!

I would have to say, unfortunately he was not the Elvis he was :'( and it must have been somewhat sad and even a little shocking to see him in that state, but I still wish I had the chance to see his shows...

franny

Me to franny, i agree with your comment.
elvislady
11-25-2007, 07:15 AM
Diane

Anyone would have to have been deaf, dumb and blind not to see that something was terribly wrong with Elvis when viewing his last concert on CBS, although he did nail a few songs in spite of it. It was very painful to watch, he didn't speak clearly, he looked very sick and bloated but that wonderful smile was still there.

I never saw Elvis as anything more than the most fantastic entertainer ever and a warm beautiful human being so I was able to accept what I saw and I would have jumped at the chance to go see him again.

Diane
11-25-2007, 07:30 AM
rocknroll

Hehehehehe:D

I have never even clicked on the original thread, as I am not a fan of the 1977 concerts.

I will say that Getlo seems to be very knowledgable and level headed, and when you post factual information on a message board that has A LOT of fanatics ("Elvis is a God" types) then you will endure some major, unwarranted attacks.
11-25-2007, 07:37 AM
poormansgold

i kow How the weight thing, I'm overweight myself , few years ago, I lost 50 lbs, I was down too 125lbs with 5'7 flame, I'm not built liked most Men are. went I was 125lbs, I can't do much things I was That's was my down fall, I was in trouble, I this new lady and I got my weight back It was. after that I was In bad Crash that's all most kill me and I lost My freedom to move around, that's part my weight gain trouble is now, I don't drive I used too I love work oin My 66 El Camino that's my lifeline that time.
after few months I Move to Michigan be my girlfriend and I gain more after that because I was eating more things.
few years later we was marry, that's I was wonder about me weight i'm at that time was 221 lbs That's most I weight my life. from that date i weight my in the morning first that's you weight less few lbs, before i got to bed i weight again I weight few lbs more.
Someday everyone will have weight gain they hit age in 40's. yes the eatting intake is key. it's not what you eatting how much, bad eatting habits part it too, the key is how much. Elvis had one bad eatting habits , we know that, how much that play the roll? and the drugs had some roll in his weight gain.
We can't believe everying words that was used in books about Elvis. What Happened to Elvis book that's book start things in motion Elvis death in motion, That I mean,
his worrys about life and more. Sonny West was one work with Elvis 1962 to 1976, the another two work for Elvis few months before they get fired my Vernon.

The Key in life is Belevie in yourself not someone do, I know I can be wrong at times or
make errors on things that's we are.
Tom
11-25-2007, 08:34 AM
Ematt

The weight thing was always going to catch up with Elvis in the end, you can see he was fighting it as early as Follow That Dream and Tickle Me. Sure Elvis looked great in 68/69/70, but it must have killed him to keep his weight down to that level.

So after 73, he just decided to let go of the whole thing like a lot of middle aged guys do.
11-25-2007, 11:07 AM
Jumpsuit Junkie

There was almost certainly a battle for Elvis to keep his weight down, Ematt your post is correct, there are indeed pictures from 1962 onward where Elvis looks to be carrying excess weight. To be honest there are times when Elvis in the 60's where Elvis looks out of shape and ill, a good example of that is 'Paradise Hawaiian Style' so you can see there is a underlying lifestyle.

From 68-73 Elvis mainly kept the battle under control and for the most part looked great. Even after 1973 with the weight gain there were certainly times when Elvis looked good for instance June of 1975 but 1975 was probably the last year that he hung on.

1976 was the year where Elvis just seemed unable to keep any sort of control as his weight fluctuated so badly, this had to contribute to his health problems or vice versa the health problem contributed to the weight. Elvis looked completely different in 1976-77 and it is not just the weight that is the issue, people can look good and be overweight. It would seem that a lifetime of dieting and a reliance on uppers and downers had come to a apex, his body just couldn't handle what was being done to it. Elvis' face reflected the struggle that was going on inside his body, he looked ill, weathered and battle drawn.

The pedigree that Elvis came from would indicate that he was going to struggle at some point to control elements of his lifestyle as did his mother. Vernon was by no means svelte until he became ill, so the Elvis of 68-73 wasn't his natural state. Ultimately it was the complete lifestyle that was the undoing of this giant of a man, the stresses and strains would be too much for the average man to deal with untouched, but combined with medication that was both detrimental to his mental and physical health there was only one inevitable conclusion.
11-25-2007, 11:28 AM
Diane

Very well stated, thank you Matt.(y)

Diane
11-25-2007, 12:10 PM
utmom2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jumpsuit Junkie

There was almost certainly a battle for Elvis to keep his weight down, Ematt your post is correct, there are indeed pictures from 1962 onward where Elvis looks to be carrying excess weight. To be honest there are times when Elvis in the 60's where Elvis looks out of shape and ill, a good example of that is 'Paradise Hawaiian Style' so you can see there is a underlying lifestyle.

From 68-73 Elvis mainly kept the battle under control and for the most part looked great. Even after 1973 with the weight gain there were certainly times when Elvis looked good for instance June of 1975 but 1975 was probably the last year that he hung on.

1976 was the year where Elvis just seemed unable to keep any sort of control as his weight fluctuated so badly, this had to contribute to his health problems or vice versa the health problem contributed to the weight. Elvis looked completely different in 1976-77 and it is not just the weight that is the issue, people can look good and be overweight. It would seem that a lifetime of dieting and a reliance on uppers and downers had come to a apex, his body just couldn't handle what was being done to it. Elvis' face reflected the struggle that was going on inside his body, he looked ill, weathered and battle drawn.

The pedigree that Elvis came from would indicate that he was going to struggle at some point to control elements of his lifestyle as did his mother. Vernon was by no means svelte until he became ill, so the Elvis of 68-73 wasn't his natural state. Ultimately it was the complete lifestyle that was the undoing of this giant of a man, the stresses and strains would be too much for the average man to deal with untouched, but combined with medication that was both detrimental to his mental and physical health there was only one inevitable conclusion.

Excellent points Matt (y) Look back at the older movies and you will notice that even his face is not as sculpted as the Elvis of 1970. We all know his eating habits were horrendous, just as we all know that he took waaayyy too many drugs. Either one of those in itself is a detriment to your health...combining the two spells disaster.

Elvis did have some good shows near the end. I was there on 12/28/76 in Dallas for what was a pretty good show. But, it was NOT the same performer that I saw in Vegas in the early 70's. :blink: If you could watch TTWII and EIC on a split screen I think anyone would be stunned by the difference, both physical and mental. I mean...even his speaking voice is different. He sounds weak and tired in EIC. I will never forget watching EIC in Oct. of 77....I was horrified at what had happened to him. It made me sooo sad, and what a shame that NO ONE could reach him. It has to be one of the greatest show business tragedies of all time, if not THE greatest. :'(
11-25-2007, 12:22 PM
jak

Quote:

Originally Posted by utmom2008

Excellent points Matt (y) Look back at the older movies and you will notice that even his face is not as sculpted as the Elvis of 1970. We all know his eating habits were horrendous, just as we all know that he took waaayyy too many drugs. Either one of those in itself is a detriment to your health...combining the two spells disaster.

Elvis did have some good shows near the end. I was there on 12/28/76 in Dallas for what was a pretty good show. But, it was NOT the same performer that I saw in Vegas in the early 70's. :blink: If you could watch TTWII and EIC on a split screen I think anyone would be stunned by the difference, both physical and mental. I mean...even his speaking voice is different. He sounds weak and tired in EIC. I will never forget watching EIC in Oct. of 77....I was horrified at what had happened to him. It made me sooo sad, and what a shame that NO ONE could reach him. It has to be one of the greatest show business tragedies of all time, if not THE greatest. :')

Your observations are well taken since you were able to be there personally and witness those shows firsthand.That's all I and some others have been trying to get across.I agree with you that the change in him was horrifying.I think that's why it's so hard to understand how so many can downplay what was going on back then.Comments like 77 was my favorite year or I liked his appearance in 77 are baffiling.The guy had no business being on a stage at that time.No concert performed in 77 could come within light years of his earlier efforts.
Jak
11-25-2007, 12:37 PM
utmom2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jak

Your observations are well taken since you were able to be there personally and witness those shows firsthand.That's all I and some others have been trying to get across.I agree with you that the change in him was horrifying.I think that's why it's so hard to understand how so many can downplay what was going on back then.Comments like 77 was my favorite year or I liked his appearance in 77 are baffiling.The guy had no business being on a stage at that time.No concert performed in 77 could come within light years of his earlier efforts.
Jak

That is sooo true Jak. A "great" show from 1977 was not as good as an "off" show in the early 70's. I think that some feel as though they are betraying Elvis by admitting that his last year was not his best year. I remember as though it was yesterday when EIC was over the very first comment from my mouth was....."why in the world did they allow that to be shown?" :'(
11-25-2007, 12:52 PM
jak

Quote:

Originally Posted by utmom2008

That is sooo true Jak. A "great" show from 1977 was not as good as an "off" show in the early 70's. I think that some feel as though they are betraying Elvis by admitting that his last year was not his best year. I remember as though it was yesterday when EIC was over the very first comment from my mouth was....."why in the world did they allow that to be shown?" :'(

I think youre right about the betraying part.His fans are so loyal I just dont think they can bring themselves to critisize him in any way no matter what youre talking about.I was the same way at one time.Being a loyal fan is great,but it shouldnt cloud youre judgement.
Jak

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page