The Dark Side of Colonel Parker..

[franny]

June 26th 2009 is a special date that commemorates four unique events of the Elvis World.
1. The 100th Birthday of Colonel Parker.
2. The 32nd Anniversary of Elvis' final concert in Indianapolis.
3. The 30th Anniversary of the death of Elvis' father, Vernon Presley.
4. The 30th Anniversary of the revelation to Elvis’ estate that Colonel Parker was still fleecing his client.
Although comedian Nipsy Russell stated that "Every entertainer should go to bed at night and pray he finds a Colonel Tom Parker under his bed when he wakes up in the morning" - is that really the truth?
It is a fact that after Elvis' death an official investigation found that "both Colonel Parker (and RCA) acted in collusion against Presley's best interests. Colonel Parker was guilty of self-dealing and overreaching and had violated his duty to both Elvis and to the estate."
While there is no doubt that Elvis and The Colonel's story is extremely complex, in this in-depth Spotlight EIN takes a look at the darker side of Colonel Tom Parker - and includes plenty of insights from Elvis’ colleagues and friends.
. Go here for this fascinating investigation. (http://www.elvisinfonet.com/spotlight_thedarksideofcolonelparker.html)
(Spotlight, Source;EIN)http://www.elvisinfonet.com/image-files/elvis_69vegascolonel_sml.jpg

[May]

The Dark Side of Col Parker??

Is there a light side then!!

[TCB4ELVIS]

The Dark Side of Col Parker??

Is there a light side then!!

my thoughts exactly. I saw an old video of Elvis' bodyguards saying, the Colonel would never tell Elvis that he did a good job. My guess is that the last time Elvis heard encouraging words like that from someone he looked up to, that was part of his daily life was his mother. That might have been the cause of all the bad decisions he made after he got out of the ARMY.

[Getlo]

Elvis' bodyguards saying, the Colonel would never tell Elvis that he did a good job.

Which is crap.

Witness the letter he wrote to Elvis after Aloha; one of many missives and messages from The Colonel giving positive reinforcement.

[May]

Which is crap.

.

You make me laugh Getlo. You are so subtle in your answers!!:lmfao:

[Diane]

You make me laugh Getlo. You are so subtle in your answers!!:lmfao:

But life would be so dull without him.:lol:

Diane

[EnigmaticSun]

You make me laugh Getlo. You are so subtle in your answers!!:lmfao:

Sure is, but every board taking itself seriously needs an intellectual.

The thing that bothers me is that I can't post a word like !d!ot or d@mn, while crap is completely acceptable.

Anyway.. there's no doubt that Parker was a very sick and dangerous man (his address is on the back of this photo). Almost makes me ashamed to have come from Holland!

[molokai123]

good article(y)

[JDD]

IMO he's always been vilified, as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility on Elvis part. I suspect thats why Elvis was willing to pay him so well too, because it allowed Elvis an out for things he really didn't want to do where he never had to be the bad guy . The Colonel is complicated and imperfect like the rest of us but if he was as evil as he's played up to be he wouldn't have been able to close as many deals as he did, Elvis or no Elvis they wouldn't have delt with him. They (music and movie industries) would have just said Sorry Elvis no deal ditch the Colonel and come back and talk with someone more reasonable.

[Stryx]

IMO he's always been vilified, as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility on Elvis part. I suspect thats why Elvis was willing to pay him so well too, because it allowed Elvis an out for things he really didn't want to do where he never had to be the bad guy . The Colonel is complicated and imperfect like the rest of us but if he was as evil as he's played up to be he wouldn't have been able to close as many deals as he did, Elvis or no Elvis they wouldn't have delt with him. They (music and movie industries) would have just said Sorry Elvis no deal ditch the Colonel and come back and talk with someone more reasonable.

All too often fans like to lay all the blame at the Colonels door and make him out to be this big bad monster who controlled Elvis.

For people who think like that I always wonder.....how can you be an Elvis fan if you assume Elvis was that weak to allow himself to be dominated.

Elvis had the Colonel as his manager it was Elvis Presley's choice. Like or loath the Colonel - Elvis kept him

[KPM]

All too often fans like to lay all the blame at the Colonels door and make him out to be this big bad monster who controlled Elvis.

For people who think like that I always wonder.....how can you be an Elvis fan if you assume Elvis was that weak to allow himself to be dominated.Elvis had the Colonel as his manager it was Elvis Presley's choice. Like or loath the Colonel - Elvis kept him
I have been an Elvis fan since 1962 and IMO Elvis was weak and insecure on many fronts- contracts/business/money, older women, wondering if friends liked him or his celebrity etc-and he was strong in others.
That is no condemnation of him-that is understanding he was not a superman who could do it all and understood it all.:blush:

[Jungleroom76]

As I've said many times before, I truly believe that in the beginning, I think The Colonel and Elvis made a very powerful pair in the entertainment business! Who else could have brokered the kinds of deals that The Colonel did for Elvis, such as the Sullivan show deals (in terms of the amount of money he was able to secure for Elvis' appearances), the movie contracts, etc. And I think The Colonel did a masterful job of keeping Elvis' name and music in the public eye while he was in the Army. I mean, let's face it....with another manager, Elvis could have very well slipped out of the public eye while he was away in the Army. But The Colonel was savvy in releasing just the right single or album at just the right time, or release just the right press release when it was needed to keep Elvis' name constantly in the headlines!!!

And of course, the first couple of years following Elvis' release were basically a continuation of the powerhouse coupling of Elvis & The Colonel with the movie deals, the Frank Sinatra show, the Hawaii Benefit, etc.

HOWEVER...by the time Elvis was locked into the endless stream of movie contracts and silly soundtrack recordings in the mid-to-late 60's, it was clear to everyone (but Elvis, I suspect) that perhaps The Colonel had outgrown his ability to present Elvis the kind of challenges and changes that Elvis needed as an artist, an actor, a musician and as a human being. Yes, there were moments where The Colonel could still pull off a sweetheart of a deal, like the '69 Vegas engagement, but those moments were becoming fewer and farther between. (n)

But sadly, because of Elvis' insecurities (as Ken pointed out so eloquently) in regards to his career and his huge sense of loyalty to The Colonel for all that he did accomplish to get Elvis to where he was, Elvis wasn't about to fire The Colonel. And unfortunately, THAT is the truly sad part of the Elvis Presley story. Elvis simply couldn't say to The Colonel "Thank you for all you've done, but it's time for me to move in a new direction." Why didn't Elvis do that? There are many speculations and rumors, but for whatever reason, it just didn't happen and by the mid 60's or the early 70's, it CLEARLY needed to be done. Would it have changed the course of history for Elvis? Maybe...maybe not, but sadly we'll never know what could have been and we're left with what TRAGICALLY happened. :'(

So, basically, while I think Elvis and The Colonel were a formidable duo in the beginning, in the later years, it became increasingly clear that The Colonel's focus was solely on how much money Elvis could make for The Colonel....and all of the clearly one-sided deals that The Colonel made on Elvis' behalf to increase The Colonel's wealth, while making Elvis work harder and harder, is truly a sad tale...and one that really makes me angry every time I think about it... :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

TCB!
Mike

[nyc]

For people who think like that I always wonder.....how can you be an Elvis fan if you assume Elvis was that weak to allow himself to be dominated.

Because some of us don't think Elvis was a perfect human being, but still enjoy his music. He made some really bad decisions, just like everyone else. I didn't think acknowledging that meant you can't be an Elvis fan.

And it is a fact that music history is filled with artists being ripped off by managers and business agents. The Beatles, the Stones, and Sam Cooke, to name just three - and Sam Cooke, Paul McCartney, and Mick Jagger all had good business sense, which Elvis didn't.

It's also a fact that the probate judge (Joseph Evans) in charge of Elvis' estate refused to approve a continuing relationship with Parker. There's a very long and detailed report presented to the Court by Lisa Marie's guardian ad litem (Blanchard Tual) documenting Parker's (and RCA's) less than ethical behavior. That report led to the EPE v. Parker and RCA litigation, which was settled by RCA paying off everyone to make the negative publicity go away, not by Parker being vindicated in court.

So the people who think Parker in the end was taking Elvis for a ride aren't pulling things out of thin air. They have plenty of evidence to back them up, starting with Tual's report and Judge Evans ordering EPE to terminate the relationship with Parker.

[Stryx]

Yeah Parker was taking advantage - thing is Elvis was allowing it. I don't hold Parker responsible anymore than I do hold Elvis responsible.

It was a strange partnership.

[debtdbruno]

I have been an Elvis fan since 1962 and IMO Elvis was weak and insecure on many fronts- contracts/business/money, older women, wondering if friends liked him or his celebrity etc-and he was strong in others.
That is no condemnation of him-that is understanding he was not a superman who could do it all and understood it all.:blush:


Well put Ken
(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)

[KPM]

Because some of us don't think Elvis was a perfect human being, but still enjoy his music. He made some really bad decisions, just like everyone else. I didn't think acknowledging that meant you can't be an Elvis fan.

And it is a fact that music history is filled with artists being ripped off by managers and business agents. The Beatles, the Stones, and Sam Cooke, to name just three - and Sam Cooke, Paul McCartney, and Mick Jagger all had good business sense, which Elvis didn't.

It's also a fact that the probate judge (Joseph Evans) in charge of Elvis' estate refused to approve a continuing relationship with Parker. There's a very long and detailed report presented to the Court by Lisa Marie's guardian ad litem (Blanchard Tual) documenting Parker's (and RCA's) less than ethical behavior. That report led to the EPE v. Parker and RCA litigation, which was settled by RCA paying off everyone to make the negative publicity go away, not by Parker being vindicated in court.

So the people who think Parker in the end was taking Elvis for a ride aren't pulling things out of thin air. They have plenty of evidence to back them up, starting with Tual's report and Judge Evans ordering EPE to terminate the relationship with Parker.
Parker was a paid consultant to RCA, and he negotiated contracts for Elvis with RCA (RCA got the best of the deals) conflict of interest.
There was also some conflict of interest with the Hilton contracts which the judge investigated, and most definitely the deal with Vernon to continue as before was not fair to the estate.
Elvis and Vernon were just not business men-Parker was and he used his "Snowman" abilities to make deals seem fair I'm sure.
I do think its fair to hold Parker responsible-for deals which were not in Elvis's best interest because his job was to look out for Elvis's best interest in negotiations. Elvis surely began to figure it out in the mid 70s-but was simply to insecure on such matters to really make the break. Parker made sure Elvis was dependent on him-by playing on his insecurities.
I posted parts of a letter in another thread Parker sent Elvis in the early 70s warning him of listening to others concerning new songs or music, and about them trying to get into his good graces and playing up to him-which Parker in the letter was doing for himself. In between the lines of the message was-You can't trust others-but you can always trust me. Parker was smart at reading people and he read Elvis like a book IMO

[Jungleroom76]

Parker was a paid consultant to RCA, and he negotiated contracts for Elvis with RCA (RCA got the best of the deals) conflict of interest.
There was also some conflict of interest with the Hilton contracts which the judge investigated, and most definitely the deal with Vernon to continue as before was not fair to the estate.
Elvis and Vernon were just not business men-Parker was and he used his "Snowman" abilities to make deals seem fair I'm sure.
I do think its fair to hold Parker responsible-for deals which were not in Elvis's best interest because his job was to look out for Elvis's best interest in negotiations. Elvis surely began to figure it out in the mid 70s-but was simply to insecure on such matters to really make the break. Parker made sure Elvis was dependent on him-by playing on his insecurities.
I posted parts of a letter in another thread Parker sent Elvis in the early 70s warning him of listening to others concerning new songs or music, and about them trying to get into his good graces and playing up to him-which Parker in the letter was doing for himself. In between the lines of the message was-You can't trust others-but you can always trust me. Parker was smart at reading people and he read Elvis like a book IMO

EXCELLENT POINTS KEN!!! (y)

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

I think the Colonel made 3 mistakes in his management of Elvis

1. If you look at Elvis movie career it wasn't the early 60's movies that damaged his reputation as an actor nor was it the late 60's movies it was the films being made in the mid 60's like Harem Scarem, Girl Happy, Paradise Hawaiian Style, Spinout, Double Trouble, Easy Come Easy Go, Clambake and Speedway
These 9 films damaged Elvis credibility as an actor and as a serious musical artist very badly. I think Parker should've at least pushed the studio's harder for better roles i'm not saying great dramatic acting roles just some decent one's, what Elvis needed in the mid 60's was another Flaming Star, Wild in the Country, Follow that Dream, Kid Galahad or maybe even a Trouble with Girls or Change of Habit type script or role that would've been a hell of a lot better than the movies Elvis clunked out between 1965-1968.
If Elvis had made some decent films in the mid 60's his reputation would have been a lot better off.

2. I think the decision to stop recording and putting out studio albums after 1962 in favor of movie soundtracks was a big mistake.
I like all of Elvis studio albums from the 60's and think they are all very good to think Elvis didn't put out any between 1963-1967 is mind boggling we probably missed out on some good music.
I could just imagine Elvis experimenting with new songs by new writers and new sounds.
Elvis didn't record any compositions by Mitch Murray, Goffin and King, Mann and Weil, Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwhich, Burt Bacarach and Hal David or Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart these writers could've kept him in the game commercially and creatively during his lean period 1964-1968.

3. Not performing overseas: every major recording artist has at least done this to some extent except Elvis.
This seems to be the biggest thing held against Parker not setting up a European or a World Tour for his client.
Let me say I think Elvis career was doing very well from 1968-1973
After the t.v. special you had the shattering of the Vegas attendance records in 1969 and 1970 then you had a sold out U.S. tour, top 10 records in 1969 and 70, The Jaycees award in 1970, The Grammy lifetime achievement award in 1971, EOT winning a Golden Globe for best documentary in 72, He Touched Me album winning a Grammy in 1972, The attendance records he broke all across the U.S., The Aloha Special in early 1973 hit album and huge ratings success. The only thing he needed in this time was a European Tour after the completion of the 1970 U.S. Tour Elvis should've toured Canada in early 71 then in the summer of that year he should've done a tour of the U.K. plus a couple of additional countries like Germany and France to keep his career momentum going.
One of the Colonel best idea's was the worldwide satelite concert Aloha after that was over to again keep Elvis career momentum going he should've set up plans for Elvis to go on a huge ambitious World tour that would include going to every country that saw Aloha plus England. Now if Parker had done this it would've kept Elvis challenged and happy at least for a while and he wouldn't be vilified for never seting up international dates for Elvis.
This would've never have been an issue among the fans and Elvis dream for performing all over the world would've been satisfied.

Colonel Tom Parker is widely regarded as being a great manager in the early years for Elvis but in the middle and in the latter years of his career is thought to be a bad one had he done these 3 things he would've been held in much higher regard as a manager in the latter career of Elvis Presley.

[debtdbruno]

Unfortunately very true Brian..........he should have had the courage to dump him

[Brian]

Unfortunately very true Brian..........he should have had the courage to dump him

I don't know if Elvis would've got better roles even if he had fired the Colonel and gotten another manager in the mid 60's for a variety of reasons.

Hollywood had this attitude towards Elvis where they just wanted him to sing in musicals that was his niche where he drawed money in.
Hal Wallis made this comment that he signed Elvis to be a singer not an actor and not the next James Dean.
I think if Wallis was really serious about developing Elvis as a serious actor he would've gave him the supporting role in his 1956 film the Rainmaker instead of loaning him out to 20th century Fox to make Love me Tender.
Wallis could've also gave Robert Redford's 1967 role in Barefoot in the Park to Elvis instead of producing Easy Come Easy Go but he didn't.

MGM had the rights to the movie The Chaquitas (AKA The Trouble with Girls)
in 1959 with Glenn Ford in mind to star in it but it got shelved only to be made in 1968 with Elvis now The Trouble with Girls is a decent film but it could've been better with some script tweaking here and there. I bet if Glenn Ford had starred in the movie it would've been better, the script would've been better.

Charro was meant for Clint Eastwood but was passed on to Elvis I've heard that in the original script there was more violence and grit but once Elvis got the role the script was watered down by the screenwriters and the more gritty elements were removed and it became a milk toast western.
Charro had potential to be a very good western and if Clint Eastwood was the star of it as intended I bet it would've been this really gritty bad *** western but unfortunately it gets watered down and the budget gets slashed when Elvis got involved.

So you see there was more obstacles for Elvis in Hollywood than just the Colonel.

[Jumpsuit Junkie]

I agree with a lot of the statements made, Elvis was capable of making his own decisions, however I guess we all like to have a safety barrier that protects us from the big bad world and the Colonel did this job for and on behalf of Elvis, Elvis for the most part liked the partnership!

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things:-

part·ner·ship (pärthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr-shhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifphttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)n.1. The state of being a partner.
2.
a. A legal contract entered into by two or more persons in which each agrees to furnish a part of the capital and labor for a business enterprise, and by which each shares a fixed proportion of profits and losses.b. The persons bound by such a contract.

3. A relationship between individuals or groups that is characterized by mutual cooperation and responsibility, as for the achievement of a specified goal:

or

man·ag·er (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-jhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr)n.1. One who handles, controls, or directs, especially:a. One who directs a business or other enterprise.
b. One who controls resources and expenditures, as of a household.

2. One who is in charge of the business affairs of an entertainer.
3. Sports a. One who is in charge of the training and performance of an athlete or a team.
b. A student who is in charge of the equipment and records of a school or college team.



Whichever of the above you are inclined to class their relationship, Elvis had a duty to look out for himself both mentally and physically. The Colonel may have took advantage, however Elvis needed to take more interest and not be apathetic. The Colonel can be considered a successful business man, Elvis was a successful entertainer. Elvis just wasn't as successful in looking after himself.

[KPM]

I agree with a lot of the statements made, Elvis was capable of making his own decisions, however I guess we all like to have a safety barrier that protects us from the big bad world and the Colonel did this job for and on behalf of Elvis, Elvis for the most part liked the partnership!

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things:-

part·ner·ship (pärthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr-shhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifphttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)n.1. The state of being a partner.
2.
a. A legal contract entered into by two or more persons in which each agrees to furnish a part of the capital and labor for a business enterprise, and by which each shares a fixed proportion of profits and losses.b. The persons bound by such a contract.

3. A relationship between individuals or groups that is characterized by mutual cooperation and responsibility, as for the achievement of a specified goal:

or

man·ag·er (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-jhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr)n.1. One who handles, controls, or directs, especially:a. One who directs a business or other enterprise.
b. One who controls resources and expenditures, as of a household.

2. One who is in charge of the business affairs of an entertainer.
3. Sports a. One who is in charge of the training and performance of an athlete or a team.
b. A student who is in charge of the equipment and records of a school or college team.



Whichever of the above you are inclined to class their relationship, Elvis had a duty to look out for himself both mentally and physically. The Colonel may have took advantage, however Elvis needed to take more interest and not be apathetic. The Colonel can be considered a successful business man, Elvis was a successful entertainer. Elvis just wasn't as successful in looking after himself.


I agree to a certain extent-but let me put it to you this way by example-I am not a tax attorney-someone does my taxes and I pretend to understand all he tells me and all he accounts for in doing my taxes. I am reasonable intelligent but tax laws change like the weather.
I feel pretty secure in the fact that he is honest I TRUST HIM.
BUT.....Could he be dishonest or slightly dishonest -sure, how would I know?I'd have to hire another person to look over everything he does.......but what if he is dishonest or slightly dishonest also- once again I'd have to hire someone to check on him etc.........So I can either try to be the man who can do everything and not need others-or I can trust people to do things I have no ability, inkling or desire to do-does that make me apathetic?
Now with music-Elvis toward the end was apathetic-he just ran thru songs and at times showed no interest-so I can see where you might say he was apathetic in his performing, recording music at certain times-that was what he did best so the lions share of that apathy is at his door I agree. (although I think he was pigeon holed for years creatively by contracts and the Colonels rules on things like song publishing etc...)
But for business I just do not fault him for not understanding all the things the Colonel handled-because he trusted that Parker was handling them honestly for Elvis's benefit and that his interests were protected not just in dealing with others-but with Parker himself. I guess its the matter of trust that irks me most.

[Brian]

I agree to a certain extent-but let me put it to you this way by example-I am not a tax attorney-someone does my taxes and I pretend to understand all he tells me and all he accounts for in doing my taxes. I am reasonable intelligent but tax laws change like the weather.
I feel pretty secure in the fact that he is honest I TRUST HIM.
BUT.....Could he be dishonest or slightly dishonest -sure, how would I know?I'd have to hire another person to look over everything he does.......but what if he is dishonest or slightly dishonest also- once again I'd have to hire someone to check on him etc.........So I can either try to be the man who can do everything and not need others-or I can trust people to do things I have no ability, inkling or desire to do-does that make me apathetic?


Well you could say that about any manager not just Parker.

I think what everybody's saying is Elvis should've took on more interest in learning about the business and being more involved in it instead of relying on the Colonel and his advice so much. He should've made more of his own decisions after all it was his career.
Elvis actually stood up to the Colonel or went against what he wanted many times in his career far more than he is given credit for so it wasn't a case of him not being able to stand up to the Colonel it's just that he should've done it a little bit more often on certain things.

[KPM]

Well you could say that about any manager not just Parker.

I think what everybody's saying is Elvis should've took on more interest in learning about the business and being more involved in it instead of relying on the Colonel and his advice so much. He should've made more of his own decisions after all it was his career.
Elvis actually stood up to the Colonel or went against what he wanted many times in his career far more than he is given credit for so it wasn't a case of him not being able to stand up to the Colonel it's just that he should've done it a little bit more often on certain things.
That may well be what "some" are saying-I just do not agree.
We fault Elvis for not doing many things but I will not fault him for not being "a hands on everything person" including business..... one who could see thru the BS and the end runs which can blindside you with one word in a contract-If you are a man capable of doing it all without trusting anyone with things you have no aptitude for-I salute you. Very few people in life can do everything and do it all well. People have their areas of expertise and areas of no aptitude-I can say with little doubt Elvis had no aptitude for business nor for show business management.
Tom Jones's son manages him today, but early on Gordon Mills was his manager-Tom did not learn the business end of it-he trusted Mills, and he now trusts his son. Tom sings and performs- his son manages and books new projects-and they each do their thing.

[Jumpsuit Junkie]

Elvis became self adsorbed and introspective, his career didn't have to be just about what the Colonel wanted, when Elvis did go against the Colonel the results were usually great e.g. 68 Special, recording with Chips in 1969. So to me at least it is clear that Elvis could of and should of took more control and direction in where his career was going.

The Colonel could have been the biggest crook on the planet, would that have made Elvis take drugs, would it have made him take the easy path? Elvis liked to let the Colonel TCB. By the time 1976-77 rolled around I think Elvis had passed caring. Elvis' part of the deal was to take care of himself and he struggled with that side. Was it the Colonels job to ensure Elvis was fit to work? I suppose there is an element that says yes, but then again back in those days there wasn't the facilities that there are now. Had Elvis been around today he would have been quietly taken to the Betty Ford clinic.

Recent events seem to show that even today the biggest stars still fall prey to the prescribed drugs. Despite good management teams stars will fall. A quote from the press in recent days sums it up to me.. "Unfortunately stars demand the medication they want, instead of what they actually need".

[Jumpsuit Junkie]

Tom Jones's son manages him today, but early on Gordon Mills was his manager-Tom did not learn the business end of it-he trusted Mills, and he now trusts his son. Tom sings and performs- his son manages and books new projects-and they each do their thing.

That's true, but Elvis didn't keep to his end of the bargain. Tom Jones has had the same temptations that Elvis had and came through the rocky roads, I guess you could say different people do different things. It seems to me the more Elvis went off the rails, the more the Colonel looked after himself. Not admirable I agree but self preservation, greed and not knowing how long he could make money off of Elvis were his motivations. Had Elvis stayed off the drugs would he have signed off on some of the bad business decisions the Colonel offered him? Would the Colonel have tried?

[KPM]

Elvis became self adsorbed and introspective, his career didn't have to be just about what the Colonel wanted, when Elvis did go against the Colonel the results were usually great e.g. 68 Special, recording with Chips in 1969. So to me at least it is clear that Elvis could of and should of took more control and direction in where his career was going.
The Colonel could have been the biggest crook on the planet, would that have made Elvis take drugs, would it have made him take the easy path? Elvis liked to let the Colonel TCB. By the time 1976-77 rolled around I think Elvis had passed caring. Elvis' part of the deal was to take care of himself and he struggled with that side. Was it the Colonels job to ensure Elvis was fit to work? I suppose there is an element that says yes, but then again back in those days there wasn't the facilities that there are now. Had Elvis been around today he would have been quietly taken to the Betty Ford clinic.

Recent events seem to show that even today the biggest stars still fall prey to the prescribed drugs. Despite good management teams stars will fall. A quote from the press in recent days sums it up to me.. "Unfortunately stars demand the medication they want, instead of what they actually need".
I totally agree-but he did not go it alone in any of these situations- he was given confidence in his own feelings and instincts by Steve Binder for the 68 special, by Chips Moman at his 69 sessions, by Marty Pasetta in Hawaii.
He just was not confident in his own instincts when it came to these situations-someone he respected had to be standing on the same ground to really make a stand.
By the same token I think he did respect the Col. and that made what the Col said and did "gospel"-especially into the late 60s.

[KPM]

That's true, but Elvis didn't keep to his end of the bargain. Tom Jones has had the same temptations that Elvis had and came through the rocky roads, I guess you could say different people do different things. It seems to me the more Elvis went off the rails, the more the Colonel looked after himself. Not admirable I agree but self preservation, greed and not knowing how long he could make money off of Elvis were his motivations. Had Elvis stayed off the drugs would he have signed off on some of the bad business decisions the Colonel offered him? Would the Colonel have tried?
True-but self preservation should not negate integrity and honesty-isn't that the heart of what I am saying? To knowingly take unfair advantage of someone who is obviously in trouble-deplorable IMO (regardless of how that trouble started)
I don't think the problem with drugs helped Elvis in any way-but I don't think that the totally straight and healthy Elvis would have understood the bad business decisions of the COl. any better.
Insecurity/lack of aptitude plagues healthy drug free people just as much as it does the other end.
But perhaps clearheaded healthy-Elvis may have sought out strong advice from "others" to help him overcome his lack of confidence in himself on certain issues and to get other opinions on his career.

[Brian]

I totally agree-but he did not go it alone in any of these situations- he was given confidence in his own feelings and instincts by Steve Binder for the 68 special, by Chips Moman at his 69 sessions, by Marty Pasetta in Hawaii.
He just was not confident in his own instincts when it came to these situations-someone he respected had to be standing on the same ground to really make a stand.
By the same token I think he did respect the Col. and that made what the Col said and did "gospel"-especially into the late 60s.

Aloha from Hawaii was all Parker's idea

[KPM]

Aloha from Hawaii was all Parker's idea
But Pasetta set the creative tone for what the special ended up as and he also told Elvis he needed to lose weight-for which Elvis respected his honesty.
But I do not disagree that Parker came up with the idea.

[Brian]

.
Tom Jones's son manages him today, but early on Gordon Mills was his manager-Tom did not learn the business end of it-he trusted Mills, and he now trusts his son. Tom sings and performs- his son manages and books new projects-and they each do their thing.

it's interesting you bring up Tom Jones and Gordon Mills

I saw a documentary of Tom Jones on the biography channel and during the program it talked about how Tom met Gordon Mills who got him noticed in the 60's by getting him on t.v. and getting him a record deal which made Jones famous.
Tom had a string of hits Gordon Mills even wrote a couple of them etc. but by the 70's Tom wanted to experiment with his music more and go in a different direction but Gordon Mills wanted him to keep playing Vegas and sing ballads or middle of the road material.
Tom Jones didn't fire Gordon and get another manager it wasn't until he died in 1983 from cancer that his son took over.

A similar situation to Elvis and the Colonel.

[KPM]

it's interesting you bring up Tom Jones and Gordon Mills

I saw a documentary of Tom Jones on the biography channel and during the program it talked about how Tom met Gordon Mills who got him noticed in the 60's by getting him on t.v. and getting him a record deal which made Jones famous.
Tom had a string of hits Gordon Mills even wrote a couple of them etc. but by the 70's Tom wanted to experiment with his music more and go in a different direction but Gordon Mills wanted him to keep playing Vegas and sing ballads or middle of the road material.
Tom Jones didn't fire Gordon and get another manager it wasn't until he died in 1983 from cancer that his son took over.

A similar situation to Elvis and the Colonel.
With one huge exception-Mills did not make any business deals which benefited him over Tom-Tom has never implied otherwise.
Where as here we all have acknowledged that the Col. did.
My brother has been a huge Tom fan since the sixties and I do have some knowledge of his career because of this.

[Brian]

With one huge exception-Mills did not make any business deals which benefited him over Tom-Tom has never implied otherwise.
Where as here we all have acknowledged that the Col. did.
My brother has been a huge Tom fan since the sixties and I do have some knowledge of his career because of this.

I wasn't saying Gordon Mills ripped off Tom

I was just saying Tom wanted to go in different directions and Gordon wanted him to stay with what was successful.

Jerry Schilling has talked many times over the years of Elvis wanting to do different things in the later years of his career and the Colonel being reluctant and wanting him to keep doing what he was doing what was successful.

Tom didn't fire Gordon mills over this and Elvis didn't fire the Colonel.

A very similar situation.

[Jungleroom76]

But for business I just do not fault him for not understanding all the things the Colonel handled-because he trusted that Parker was handling them honestly for Elvis's benefit and that his interests were protected not just in dealing with others-but with Parker himself. I guess its the matter of trust that irks me most.

That's precisely my point too Ken! The Colonel's job was to manage Elvis and to take care of all the contracts, financial transactions, etc. Obviously all entertainers who have a manager have to have trust in that person, so that the entertainer can concentrate on entertaining.

Clearly that was the MAJOR issue here....Elvis trusted The Colonel too much and didn't realize just how much he was being taken advantage of... :'(

TCB!
Mike

[Jungleroom76]

True-but self preservation should not negate integrity and honesty-isn't that the heart of what I am saying? To knowingly take unfair advantage of someone who is obviously in trouble-deplorable IMO (regardless of how that trouble started)
I don't think the problem with drugs helped Elvis in any way-but I don't think that the totally straight and healthy Elvis would have understood the bad business decisions of the COl. any better.
Insecurity/lack of aptitude plagues healthy drug free people just as much as it does the other end.
But perhaps clearheaded healthy-Elvis may have sought out strong advice from "others" to help him overcome his lack of confidence in himself on certain issues and to get other opinions on his career.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

TCB!
Mike

[Wendy56]

(n) for Parker.........

[KPM]

I wasn't saying Gordon Mills ripped off Tom

I was just saying Tom wanted to go in different directions and Gordon wanted him to stay with what was successful.

Jerry Schilling has talked many times over the years of Elvis wanting to do different things in the later years of his career and the Colonel being reluctant and wanting him to keep doing what he was doing what was successful.

Tom didn't fire Gordon mills over this and Elvis didn't fire the Colonel.

A very similar situation.
We'll have to disagree on that-I think the Col and Elvis were pretty unique in the situation they were in. There was only one Elvis-and one Col. Tom is a great singer and talent-but Elvis was unique.
Elvis did fire the Col-he and Vernon just lost nerve when the insecurities
haunted them after the Col presented his huge bill for supposedly unpaid money due him.

[epmoodyblue]

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/selenauno/th_blahh.gif

[Brian]

We'll have to disagree on that-I think the Col and Elvis were pretty unique in the situation they were in. There was only one Elvis-and one Col. Tom is a great singer and talent-but Elvis was unique.
Elvis did fire the Col-he and Vernon just lost nerve when the insecurities
haunted them after the Col presented his huge bill for supposedly unpaid money due him.

I just meant in that one instance where Tom wanted to go in a different direction musically or do some things differently same as Elvis did in that regard it was a similar situation I didn't mean Gordon Mills management of Tom Jones was similar to the Colonel or that their relationship was the same as Elvis and the Colonel. They were probably very different in a lot of ways but in the example I used it was similar.

Elvis fired the Colonel but it was reportedly over Elvis making inappropriate remarks about the Hilton hotel management Parker confronted him after the show and they got into a big fight over it then Elvis fired him.

[Brian]

When Elvis and the Colonel had that fight in 1973 where Parker was fired

I think both Elvis and the Colonel were tired of each other right at that point you had EP wanting to go in a different direction that the Colonel didn't want to take him for whatever reason and you had Parker an old man who was tired of dealing with his client's behavior but they were both too insecure to end their partnership and walk away from one another.

From Elvis point of view the Colonel was the guy that took him out of the south and got him on a major label which got his songs more exposure and also got him tremendous deals for his t.v. appearances, got him into the movies, kept his name in the news during the army, set up tours and recording sessions and in the 70's came up with the idea for Aloha from Hawaii etc. Elvis was extremely grateful to the Colonel as he should've been and probably was so insecure that he probably thought he couldn't make it with anyone else because he had never had any success with anyone else.
So he was very reluctant to pull the trigger and end their business association when they got into that fight in 1973.


From Colonel's point of view he was Elvis manager and he got a lot of offers to manage a lot of big stars during the 50's and 60's like Ann Margret, Danny Thomas, Milton Berle, George Hamilton, Natalie Wood and the Beatles but when you hear about all the other artists he could've managed in 1973 they were all pass their prime he wasn't getting offers to manage up and coming or popular stars anymore so he couldn't afford to lose Elvis he had no other ways to draw the same type of income so he had to stick to him like glue.

After Elvis and the Colonel briefly broke up his two choices to become his new manager Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huelett both turned him down that could've factored in his decision to stay with the Colonel.

In a situation like this I think the Memphis mafia guys are all talk some of them talk about how Elvis should've fired the Colonel and got a new manager but when Elvis did where was Lamar Fike he had management experience when he briefly handled Brenda Lee.
Where was Jerry Schilling Elvis was so big anybody could've managed him


Just my 2 cents

[Jungleroom76]

Where was Jerry Schilling Elvis was so big anybody could've managed him

Didn't Elvis approach Jerry during this period to inquire about him managing Elvis? I thought I remembered reading that somewhere, perhaps in Jerry's book? :hmm:

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

Didn't Elvis approach Jerry during this period to inquire about him managing Elvis? I thought I remembered reading that somewhere, perhaps in Jerry's book? :hmm:

TCB!
Mike

No, I don't think so and if he did Jerry turned him down

I don't remember reading that in Jerry's book.

[rickb]

The dark side of the Colonel...no wonder it is taking so many pages of comments!

[epmoodyblue]

The dark side of the Colonel...no wonder it is taking so many pages of comments!http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/selenauno/th_laughter.gif(y)

[Hominuk]

I often wonder if the colonel had something on Elvis....blackmailing him somehow....

[Brian]

I often wonder if the colonel had something on Elvis....blackmailing him somehow....

No

All that's just unfounded silly rumors none of it's true.

What could the Colonel possibly have to blackmail Elvis anyway.

[KPM]

I just meant in that one instance where Tom wanted to go in a different direction musically or do some things differently same as Elvis did in that regard it was a similar situation I didn't mean Gordon Mills management of Tom Jones was similar to the Colonel or that their relationship was the same as Elvis and the Colonel. They were probably very different in a lot of ways but in the example I used it was similar.

Elvis fired the Colonel but it was reportedly over Elvis making inappropriate remarks about the Hilton hotel management Parker confronted him after the show and they got into a big fight over it then Elvis fired him.
I do recall Tom did make a couple changes of direction in the late 70s and early 80s-he did 2 all country albums and began wearing more hip clothes and quit wearing the tuxedos and he also did a disco flavored album.
I'm sure Tom had some input as he has said he has always loved country music and had some urban country songs on earlier albums.
I don't know if this was by mutual agreement between Tom and Gordon or it was ones idea that the other went along. Another huge difference in Mills and Parker is that Mills had a creative streak-he wrote, he played music-so he understood what it takes to make and create music.
Parker had a total lack of knowledge as to the creative process in creative people.
Tom had Mills around a little longer as he died in 1986-not 1983 according to Tom Jones websight.

[shelley.m.]

The Dark Side of Col Parker??

Is there a light side then!!

(y)Good One!!!!(y)

[shelley.m.]

No

All that's just unfounded silly rumors none of it's true.

What could the Colonel possibly have to blackmail Elvis anyway.

Like Elvis sleeping with a 14yr old?

[Brian]

Like Elvis sleeping with a 14yr old?

Nope

no evidence that Elvis slept with any 14 year old not even Priscilla.

Parker wasn't blackmailing Elvis that's not what he did.

[KPM]

Parker was not the type to blackmail IMO he did not need to do things like that.
He was good at sizing up and reading people-he figured out what made them tick-then when necessary he could push those buttons without them even knowing he was pushing. Snowman-his own self imposed title.

[shelley.m.]

Would Parker have known about Vernon being in prison or no?

[Brian]

Would Parker have known about Vernon being in prison or no?


The 2 things that people say Parker might've been blackmailing Elvis with were Vernon being in Prison and Elvis having a gay love affair with Nick Adams.

Vernon Presley spending a year in prison for writing a bad check is no big deal Vernon did his time and that's got nothing to do with Elvis
I don't know if Parker even knew about Vernon spending time in prison or not

Elvis and Nick Adams didn't have a gay relationship because Elvis wasn't gay and it's very possible that he didn't even know Nick was gay.

People that write these things don't know what the hell they are talking about. Just pay them no mind.

Parker was a con man not a blackmailer and he had nothing to even blackmail Elvis with anyway

[shelley.m.]

Thanks,Brian.

[Jungleroom76]

No, I don't think so and if he did Jerry turned him down

I don't remember reading that in Jerry's book.

Now that you say that about Jerry turning him down, I could swear I have read that somewhere....maybe not Jerry's book, but somewhere else??? :hmm: :doh:

TCB!
Mike

[Jungleroom76]

I often wonder if the colonel had something on Elvis....blackmailing him somehow....

I seriously doubt that Hominuk. Clearly though, The Colonel was clearly hiding things from Elvis....everything from the side deals he was making to Elvis' detriment to The Colonel hiding his background from everyone as evidenced by not allowing Elvis to tour worldwide. (n)

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

I seriously doubt that Hominuk. Clearly though, The Colonel was clearly hiding things from Elvis....everything from the side deals he was making to Elvis' detriment to The Colonel hiding his background from everyone as evidenced by not allowing Elvis to tour worldwide. (n)

TCB!
Mike

After giving it some thought I have came to the conclusion that Colonel Parker really wasn't illegal after all.

[Jungleroom76]

After giving it some thought I have came to the conclusion that Colonel Parker really wasn't illegal after all.

Hmmm....I HIGHLY doubt that Brian! :hmm:

Have you read Alanna Nash's book THE COLONEL?? I think that book will put The Colonel into a different perspective for you!!! :hmm:

TCB!
Mike

[KPM]

After giving it some thought I have came to the conclusion that Colonel Parker really wasn't illegal after all.
In the litigation between the estate, Parker and RCA even-one of the defenses which Parker used was that he was not a US citizen-and that he was in fact a Dutch citizen therefore only a suit could be brought against him on DUtch soil-(or something to that effect) the court said that even as a Dutch citizen he could be sued-but Parker admitted he was Dutch and NOT a US citizen. If Parkers lawyers and he made a motion to dismiss on these grounds it must be true.
Page 2-3rd Paragraph.... deals with his claim of being a Dutch citizen.
http://www.preslaw.net/rcarecordsvhanks.pdf

[Brian]

Hmmm....I HIGHLY doubt that Brian! :hmm:

Have you read Alanna Nash's book THE COLONEL?? I think that book will put The Colonel into a different perspective for you!!! :hmm:

TCB!
Mike

Yes, I've read her book

Her book is okay but flawed

Being a longtime fan of Elvis i've noticed several things wrong in her book she also relies on that Byron Raphael guy for a source throughout
The guy that claims among other infamous things that Elvis slept with Marilyn Monroe!!!


What I mean by Parker not being an illegal alien is this

Technically he was because he wasn't born in the U.S. and came here illegally


But consider that once Parker came to the U.S. he had a social security number, a drivers liscense, paid taxes, owned houses and had several other things under the name Tom Parker.
When World War II started he was sent a draft notice by the U.S. Government but was able to get out of it for back problems or something like that.

The Colonel was in the system under the name Tom Parker the U.S. government was very well aware of him.

Other illegal immigrants that come to the U.S. from other countries are undocumented they aren't in the system that's precisely why they are illegal immigrants that wasn't the case with Colonel Parker.

[Brian]

In the litigation between the estate, Parker and RCA even-one of the defenses which Parker used was that he was not a US citizen-and that he was in fact a Dutch citizen therefore only a suit could be brought against him on DUtch soil-(or something to that effect) the court said that even as a Dutch citizen he could be sued-but Parker admitted he was Dutch and NOT a US citizen. If Parkers lawyers and he made a motion to dismiss on these grounds it must be true.
Page 2-3rd Paragraph.... deals with his claim of being a Dutch citizen.
http://www.preslaw.net/rcarecordsvhanks.pdf

I understand that technically he was but then again he really wasn't.

[KPM]

I understand that technically he was but then again he really wasn't.
Thats a funny way to look at it? All that matters in a court of law is how "technically" the law is either observed or broken-you can not make a defense by our system by saying "technically he was but then again he wasn't".......
no matter the thought or premise behind the "then again he wasn't" it will amount to nothing. They will go by what the technical definition of any given law is and that will be the ruling.
By the courts of the US- Parker was not a legal citizen-by Parkers own admission in his legal motions in the case I sighted- he was not a legal citizen of the US

[Brian]

Thats a funny way to look at it? All that matters in a court of law is how "technically" the law is either observed or broken-you can not make a defense by our system by saying "technically he was but then again he wasn't".......
no matter the thought or premise behind the "then again he wasn't" it will amount to nothing. They will go by what the technical definition of any given law is and that will be the ruling.
By the courts of the US- Parker was not a legal citizen-by Parkers own admission in his legal motions in the case I sighted- he was not a legal citizen of the US

I gave my explaination on page 3

Colonel Parker's assertion that he wasn't a U.S. citizen to avoid being sued should've worked but it didn't.

I know Parker wasn't a U.S. citizen but he wasn't illegal either

[Jungleroom76]

Yes, I've read her book

Her book is okay but flawed

I certainly don't disagree that her book is flawed in terms of some of her Elvis facts, but considering we really don't have another source for detailed information on The Colonel, we really have to consider the information she presents as accurate unless something she states can be proven incorrect with another information source. :hmm:

As for the things you mentioned (driver's license, social security number, etc.), those things could have been obtained illegally...I mean, after all, The Colonel took the name of a soldier as his own, right? Some of this stuff may have been addressed in Alanna's book, and I'll admit it has been quite a while since I've read it, so I have to apologize if I state things that may have been mentioned/not mentioned in the book. But considering The Colonel's background as a whole, I don't really believe that he came by much of his life honestly...he was always pulling the wool over someone's eyes, whether it be the U.S. government, Elvis, etc.

As for The Colonel paying taxes, yes I am sure he did do that but if I had to guess, I would say he only did what he absolutely had to in order to not be audited or investigated. I would bet my left arm that there was LOTS of money he didn't report... ;)

Sorry that I have such a lousy perspective of The Colonel, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, while I truly believe Elvis and The Colonel were a power pair back in the beginning of Elvis' career, the things that The Colonel did to Elvis during the later years and then continued to do to the estate after Elvis' passing was simply deplorable and in my eyes, overshadows everything good that the man did for Elvis!!! :angry:

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

I certainly don't disagree that her book is flawed in terms of some of her Elvis facts, but considering we really don't have another source for detailed information on The Colonel, we really have to consider the information she presents as accurate unless something she states can be proven incorrect with another information source. :hmm:

As for the things you mentioned (driver's license, social security number, etc.), those things could have been obtained illegally...I mean, after all, The Colonel took the name of a soldier as his own, right? Some of this stuff may have been addressed in Alanna's book, and I'll admit it has been quite a while since I've read it, so I have to apologize if I state things that may have been mentioned/not mentioned in the book. But considering The Colonel's background as a whole, I don't really believe that he came by much of his life honestly...he was always pulling the wool over someone's eyes, whether it be the U.S. government, Elvis, etc.

As for The Colonel paying taxes, yes I am sure he did do that but if I had to guess, I would say he only did what he absolutely had to in order to not be audited or investigated. I would bet my left arm that there was LOTS of money he didn't report... ;)

Sorry that I have such a lousy perspective of The Colonel, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, while I truly believe Elvis and The Colonel were a power pair back in the beginning of Elvis' career, the things that The Colonel did to Elvis during the later years and then continued to do to the estate after Elvis' passing was simply deplorable and in my eyes, overshadows everything good that the man did for Elvis!!! :angry:

TCB!
Mike

This is my point i'm trying to get across

Colonel Parker did pax taxes
He paid very high taxes

He did own a house legally

He did obtain a drivers liscense legally

He obtained these things fair and square not illegally

I'm skeptical of Alanna Nash claim that Parker took his name off a dead soldier he knew because some people say he didn't but it doesn't matter because he was still in the system under that name regardless of how he came up with it.


For years people have claimed Parker was afraid to apply for a passport because if he did his identity of coming from Holland and his background would've been found out.

Now if you are an undocumented illegal allien who applies for a passport they can found out you are here illegally because there is no record of them becuase they aren't in the system but Parker being in the system that wouldn't of been the case.

[KPM]

I gave my explaination on page 3

Colonel Parker's assertion that he wasn't a U.S. citizen to avoid being sued should've worked but it didn't.

I know Parker wasn't a U.S. citizen but he wasn't illegal either
Well you and I (and the US courts disagree)-in order to be a legal alien or citizen of this country who repatriates to the US-certain things have to be done by order of the laws of the United States-this is fact. Parker did not do them-therefore by recognition of the fact that certain things are required to be legal in the US and recognition of the fact that Parker did not do these requirements-he is not in the US legally. This is the law, its what every person who comes to the US must obey-if they do not they are considered "illegal aliens" I can not see any way to get around those legal and logical facts.

[KPM]

This is my point i'm trying to get across

Colonel Parker did pax taxes
He paid very high taxes

He did own a house legally

He did obtain a drivers liscense legally

He obtained these things fair and square not illegally

I'm skeptical of Alanna Nash claim that Parker took his name off a dead soldier he knew because some people say he didn't but it doesn't matter because he was still in the system under that name regardless of how he came up with it.


For years people have claimed Parker was afraid to apply for a passport because if he did his identity of coming from Holland and his background would've been found out.

Now if you are an undocumented illegal allien who applies for a passport they can found out you are here illegally because there is no record of them becuase they aren't in the system but Parker being in the system that wouldn't of been the case.
You are mixing apples and oranges all the things you mention were done all the time -up until 9-11 where laws tightened.
Illegals get licences, they buy houses they own property, and they may do these things legally for those situations. But they are still in the US illegally and are not lawful citizens.
An illegal alien my never break any laws, traffic, criminal , moral etc....
they does not negate the fact that they have broken immigration and citizenship laws-you are trying to tie 2 separate legal things together and declare that because X and Y were done legally, that Z is also legal because of them.


I will agree that Parker made sure he did eveything else in his life-by the book and made sure there was no reason to check into his past-so sure he was a lawful person while in the US.

[Brian]

Well you and I (and the US courts disagree)-in order to be a legal alien or citizen of this country who repatriates to the US-certain things have to be done by order of the laws of the United States-this is fact. Parker did not do them-therefore by recognition of the fact that certain things are required to be legal in the US and recognition of the fact that Parker did not do these requirements-he is not in the US legally. This is the law, its what every person who comes to the US must obey-if they do not they are considered "illegal aliens" I can not see any way to get around those legal and logical facts.

Parker situation was a lot more complicated to say the least

He's the only illegal immigrant that I know of that had a social security number and legally had a drivers liscense.

People that are illegal aliens don't have a social security number but Parker did.
He also served in the U.S Army for a number of years illegal aliens aren't suppose to be allowed to serve in the U.S. Army but again Parker managed to do so.

Colonel Parker was also the only famous illegal immigrant that I know of that opens a lot of doors.
That sure will get around legal and logical facts

[Brian]

You are mixing apples and oranges all the things you mention were done all the time -up until 9-11 where laws tightened.
Illegals get licences, they buy houses they own property, and they may do these things legally for those situations. But they are still in the US illegally and are not lawful citizens.
An illegal alien my never break any laws, traffic, criminal , moral etc....
they does not negate the fact that they have broken immigration and citizenship laws-you are trying to tie 2 separate legal things together and declare that because X and Y were done legally, that Z is also legal because of them.

I'm not really disputing that Parker was an illegal alien

I'm saying his name was in the system and the government never found out

The only reason anybody found out that Parker was an illegal alien was because his family in Holland saw pictures of him in a magazine they then told everybody in Holland about him being from there.

It was common knowledge among the dutch Elvis fans that Parker was from Holland one of them many years later told Albert Goldman and he put it in his book

If those fans from Holland hadn't of told Goldman that Parker was from Holland nobody would've ever found out.

The U.S. government had no clue and wouldn't of continued to have no clue.

I'm saying if Parker would've applied for a passport back in the 60's or 70's the government wouldn't have been able to find out he was an illegal immigrant.
Because as far as the U.S. Government was concerned he was Thomas Andrew Parker from West Virginia and things were a lot less high tech back then

Parker had manipulated the government until the dutch Elvis fans spoiled it

[KPM]

Parker situation was a lot more complicated to say the least

He's the only illegal immigrant that I know of that had a social security number and legally had a drivers liscense.

People that are illegal aliens don't have a social security number but Parker did.
He also served in the U.S Army for a number of years illegal aliens aren't suppose to be allowed to serve in the U.S. Army but again Parker managed to do so.

Colonel Parker was also the only famous illegal immigrant that I know of that opens a lot of doors.
That sure will get around legal and logical facts
Brian one of the reasons that things tightened up after 9-11 attacks is because illegals did have SS numbers and could set up lives too easily in the US with no real citizenship.
Parker lied to get in the service about where he was born-it was easily done and it was easy in the early 1900s into the 60s to just make claims of lost birth certificates, lost records etc.....He did not just walk into the recruiting office and say
"My real name is Andreas Cornelis van Kujik from Breda Holland
I am not a citizen but I want to join up"
He told them he was Tom Parker from Virginia and he got into the service.

[KPM]

I'm not really disputing that Parker was an illegal alien

I'm saying his name was in the system and the government never found out

The only reason anybody found out that Parker was an illegal alien was because his family in Holland saw pictures of him in a magazine they then told everybody in Holland about him being from there.

It was common knowledge among the dutch Elvis fans that Parker was from Holland one of them many years later told Albert Goldman and he put it in his book

If those fans from Holland hadn't of told Goldman that Parker was from Holland nobody would've ever found out.

The U.S. government had no clue and wouldn't of continued to have no clue.

I'm saying if Parker would've applied for a passport back in the 60's or 70's the government wouldn't have been able to find out he was an illegal immigrant.Because as far as the U.S. Government was concerned he was Thomas Andrew Parker from West Virginia.
An orphan.
Well he never did that did he?
He did not want to take the chance that just maybe they could find that out that he was not from Virginia and was not Tom Parker. He wanted it buried and did not want it dug up-which in the late 60s may have been hard to do but he must have thought it possible.

[Brian]

Brian one of the reasons that things tightened up after 9-11 attacks is because illegals did have SS numbers and could set up lives too easily in the US with no real citizenship.
Parker lied to get in the service about where he was born-it was easily done and it was easy in the early 1900s into the 60s to just make claims of lost birth certificates, lost records etc.....He did not just walk into the recruiting office and say
"My real name is Andreas Cornelis van Kujik from Breda Holland
I am not a citizen but I want to join up"
He told them he was Tom Parker from Virginia and he got into the service.



I'm saying Parker had a social security number legally not illegally
I know some illegal immigrants that managed to get some social security numbers through illegal means and it was a while before they were found out.
But Parker got his issued legally through the government because he conned them the snowman conned everyone into actually believing he was from West Virginia.


You've just proved my point again for me
Colonel Parker technically shouldn't of been able to get a passport
He could've lied about his background and say his lost his birth certificate similar to what he did with the army.

[KPM]

I'm saying Parker had a social security number legally not illegally
I know some illegal immigrants that managed to get some social security numbers through illegal means and it was a while before they were found out.
But Parker got his issued legally through the government because he conned them the snowman conned everyone into actually believing he was from West Virginia.


You've just proved my point again for me
Colonel Parker technically shouldn't of been able to get a passport
He could've lied about his background and say his lost his birth certificate similar to what he did with the army.
You just proved my point in actuality-conning someone (lying) is not legal.

He did not get it legally-what you are saying is that because they did not catch it it was not illegal???????????????
To con someone (including the government) is illegal (believe it or not)
If you misrepresent something to anyone-in order to obtain anything-I'm sorry its illegal-whether caught in a week or 50 years its illegal.

[Brian]

You just proved my point in actuality-conning someone (lying) is not legal.

He did not get it legally-what you are saying is that because they did not catch it it was not illegal???????????????
To con someone (including the government) is illegal (believe it or not)
If you misrepresent something to anyone-in order to obtain anything-I'm sorry its illegal-whether caught in a week or 50 years its illegal.

Yes

See Parker did not obtain his social security number the same way other illegals do who have them.

He got his fair and square because everybody was under the assumption he was born in the U.S. he didn't have to obtain one through illlegal means

I know it doesn't make sense but Parker's situation was very complicated.

[KPM]

Yes

See Parker did not obtain his social security number the same way other illegals do who have them.

He got his fair and square because everybody was under the assumption he was born in the U.S. he didn't have to obtain one through illlegal means

I know it doesn't make sense but Parker's situation was very complicated.
If you rob a bank-you rob a bank.
Doesnt matter if you go in with a gun and mask or you rob it by conning someone into giving you a huge loan which on paper is legit.
One is called armed robbery and you get bank funds illegally.
The other is called fraud and you get bank funds illegally.
If you are not caught and get away with armed robbery-it still was a crime.
If you are not caught conning or defrauding the bank-its still was a crime also.
Just because you get away with something does not negate legal or illegal, good or bad, ....... black or white. He commited a fraud-he gave information on a govenment form which was not true. Check any formal document you sign loan, drivers license etc....there is usually in small print a disclaimer which says:
...making false statements in order to obtain "whatever" is illegal and is punishable by fine-imprisonment or both.....


Statements or entries generally:
(a) . . . Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the
executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United
States, knowingly and willfully

(1) falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or
device a material fact;

(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statements or representation;

(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the
same to contain any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent
statement or entry;

shall be fined* under this title or imprisoned not more than five
years, or both.[FN1]

[Brian]

If you rob a bank-you rob a bank.
Doesnt matter if you go in with a gun and mask or you rob it by conning someone into giving you a huge loan which on paper is legit.
One is called armed robbery and you get bank funds illegally.
The other is called fraud and you get bank funds illegally.
If you are not caught and get away with armed robbery-it still was a crime.
If you are not caught conning or defrauding the bank-its still was a crime also.
Just because you get away with something does not negate legal or illegal, good or bad, ....... black or white. He commited a fraud-he gave information on a govenment form which was not true. Check any formal document you sign loan, drivers license etc....there is usually in small print a disclaimer which says:
...making false statements in order to obtain "whatever" is illegal and is punishable by fine-imprisonment or both.....


Statements or entries generally:
(a) . . . Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the
executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United
States, knowingly and willfully

(1) falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or
device a material fact;

(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statements or representation;

(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the
same to contain any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent
statement or entry;

shall be fined* under this title or imprisoned not more than five
years, or both.[FN1]


Was Colonel Parker punished for doing any of these things.

[Brian]

I say that since Parker had a social security number, drivers license, photo id and the U.S. had a record of him that if he were to apply for a passport they wouldn't be able to tell that he was an illegal immigrant particulary if he had applied for one in the 40's, 50's or 60's when the technology was a lot more primitive than it is now.

Now by chance even if they were able to tell he was illegal I bet they would have still given him a passport because he was Elvis manager and he had been here since 1929.

Whether Colonel Parker could get a passport or not isn't the issue because he definately could the problem was that he never applied for one or tried to get one now why he never did no one knows for sure.

I just came to the conclusion after much thought that the U.S. Goverment wouldn't have been able to determine that the Colonel was an illegal alien after all it's not what Colonel Parker did that was unlawful it's what you can prove.

[KPM]

Was Colonel Parker punished for doing any of these things.
What does not getting punished have to do with having lied on forms which established him "falsely" as US born?
Brian the point is not whether he was punished-the point is no matter how you justify it-he was illegal. By the laws we live under he broke laws which govern how people are allowed legally to be in this country. He did it by lying on forms, and by making false claims of who he was and where he was born.
You seem to believe that if a crime is not discovered-a crime was not committed.
I am the first to admit that Parker snowed everyone-the government included-but a good snowjob, or a good conning...... is still illegal no matter they did not catch him.

He never got caught-that does not make what he did legally or morally correct.

[KPM]

I say that since Parker had a social security number, drivers license, photo id and the U.S. had a record of him that if he were to apply for a passport they wouldn't be able to tell that he was an illegal immigrant particulary if he had applied for one in the 40's, 50's or 60's when the technology was a lot more primitive than it is now.

Now by chance even if they were able to tell he was illegal I bet they would have still given him a passport because he was Elvis manager and he had been here since 1929.

Whether Colonel Parker could get a passport or not isn't the issue because he definately could the problem was that he never applied for one or tried to get one now why he never did no one knows for sure.

I just came to the conclusion after much thought that the U.S. Goverment wouldn't have been able to determine that the Colonel was an illegal alien after all it's not what Colonel Parker did that was unlawful it's what you can prove.
Come again?????? It most was illegal-to lie-to the government when it is specific(as I pointed out) that you are warned if you lie-you are breaking the law-you are not legal!
You want to say-sure he was illegal-bu......t they probably could not prove it! Regardless of whether they could or could not have proved it he was illegal in this country.
I understand you came to "your conclusion"-but that is hardly the kind of thing which would have proved him legal-in an immigration court.
If we all taught our kids when they were little-
"you do not commit a crime, if you never get caught"
more kids would be in jail today thinking anything goes if you are not caught.
What you are saying is crime does pay-if you are not caught! Is that what most of us were taught as children?

[Brian]

What does not getting punished have to do with having lied on forms which established him "falsely" as US born?
Brian the point is not whether he was punished-the point is no matter how you justify it-he was illegal. By the laws we live under he broke laws which govern how people are allowed legally to be in this country. He did it by lying on forms, and by making false claims of who he was and where he was born.
You seem to believe that if a crime is not discovered-a crime was not committed.
I am the first to admit that Parker snowed everyone-the government included-but a good snowjob, or a good conning...... is still illegal no matter they did not catch him.

He never got caught-that does not make what he did legally or morally correct.



I was asking if Parker was ever punished

People in the U.S. found out he was illegal because of Albert Goldman's book

I think that was in 1981 was he reprimanded in any way
I don't think he ever was.
just curious.

I think Parker even got a way with ripping Elvis off financially and was paid 2 million dollars instead!!!

[Brian]

Come again?????? It most was illegal-to lie-to the government when it is specific(as I pointed out) that you are warned if you lie-you are breaking the law-you are not legal!
You want to say-sure he was illegal-bu......t they probably could not prove it! Regardless of whether they could or could not have proved it he was illegal in this country.
I understand you came to "your conclusion"-but that is hardly the kind of thing which would have proved him legal-in an immigration court.
If we all taught our kids when they were little-
"you do not commit a crime, if you never get caught"
more kids would be in jail today thinking anything goes if you are not caught.
What you are saying is crime does pay-if you are not caught! Is that what most of us were taught as children?

I'm saying the U.S. government didn't prove and couldn't prove he was illegal that he had commited a civil crime.

I believe illegal immigration is wrong if I was going to live in another country
I would file the proper papers.

But Parker was never caught by the government he was found out by Albert Goldman after Dutch Elvis fans told him.

So l think the U.S. government never would've been able to find out Parker was illegal.

[KPM]

I gave my explaination on page 3

Colonel Parker's assertion that he wasn't a U.S. citizen to avoid being sued should've worked but it didn't.

I know Parker wasn't a U.S. citizen but he wasn't illegal either
This was your original statement-it had nothing to do with:
was he punished,
could they have found out if he applied for a passport

I am addressing your statement "he wasn't a US citizen but he wasn't illegal either."
I have proved he was illegal by the laws of the land and by his own admission.
If he was not really born in W. Virginia (which he admitted in his motion in the suit I posted) but in the past put down on even one government paper for the Army, to get a SS#, to get a drivers license-he broke the law by lying or to use your term snowing the government to fake his place of birth to acquire rights as a citizen.
Thats just fact-law.

[KPM]

I'm saying the U.S. government didn't prove and couldn't prove he was illegal that he had commited a civil crime.

I believe illegal immigration is wrong if I was going to live in another country
I would file the proper papers.

But Parker was never caught by the government he was found out by Albert Goldman after Dutch Elvis fans told him.

So l think the U.S. government never would've been able to find out Parker was illegal.
Does not matter in the point of was he legal or illegal.
That was the point you brought up way back.

[Jungleroom76]

This is my point i'm trying to get across

Colonel Parker did pax taxes
He paid very high taxes

He did own a house legally

He did obtain a drivers liscense legally

He obtained these things fair and square not illegally

That may very well have been the case Brian. Obviously he was doing whatever he had to so as to not have his background investigated.


I'm skeptical of Alanna Nash claim that Parker took his name off a dead soldier he knew because some people say he didn't but it doesn't matter because he was still in the system under that name regardless of how he came up with it.

All I can say about that is, if it is indeed true that he did take the name of a dead soldier, that was a despicable act right there!!! :cursing:



For years people have claimed Parker was afraid to apply for a passport because if he did his identity of coming from Holland and his background would've been found out.

Now if you are an undocumented illegal allien who applies for a passport they can found out you are here illegally because there is no record of them becuase they aren't in the system but Parker being in the system that wouldn't of been the case.

That is a fair point Brian, but given The Colonel's concerns of being found out, why would he even risk such a thing?? Perhaps they never would have found out about his past because they were doing a background check on Tom Parker, not Andreas Cornelis van Kuijk. But regardless of that, it now appears that The Colonel's past quite possibly prevented Elvis from being able to tour worldwide, which is a real shame!!! (n)

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

Does not matter in the point of was he legal or illegal.
That was the point you brought up way back.

If wasn't really my point to say whether Parker was illegal or not

I worded it wrong

I meant to say the U.S. Government couldn't prove the Colonel Parker was illegal.

He had all the basic privledges of a U.S. citizen because everyone thought he was a citizen

My point is tied in with my belief that the U.S. government wouldn't have been able to tell he was an illegal alien if he had applied for a passport

The only way they would've known is if he admitted publicly he was an illegal alien.

[Brian]

That may very well have been the case Brian. Obviously he was doing whatever he had to so as to not have his background investigated.



All I can say about that is, if it is indeed true that he did take the name of a dead soldier, that was a despicable act right there!!! :cursing:




That is a fair point Brian, but given The Colonel's concerns of being found out, why would he even risk such a thing?? Perhaps they never would have found out about his past because they were doing a background check on Tom Parker, not Andreas Cornelis van Kuijk. But regardless of that, it now appears that The Colonel's past quite possibly prevented Elvis from being able to tour worldwide, which is a real shame!!! (n)

TCB!
Mike

I don't really think so

Parker had several options to get a passport

one as i've said was to just apply for one.

Colonel Parker being from another country and entering the country when he was a young man illegally really isn't a big deal.

I think Parker had other reasons for not seeking a passport.

besides Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huellet handled the tours and Parker wouldn't of had to go anyway.

I think if Elvis had sat down with the Colonel and really explained to him how much a overseas tour meant to him that it was something he had to do I think the Colonel would've set one up.

[KPM]

If wasn't really my point to say whether Parker was illegal or not

I worded it wrong

I meant to say the U.S. Government couldn't prove the Colonel Parker was illegal.

He had all the basic privledges of a U.S. citizen because everyone thought he was a citizen

My point is tied in with my belief that the U.S. government wouldn't have been able to tell he was an illegal alien if he had applied for a passport

The only way they would've known is if he admitted publicly he was an illegal alien.
Well I'd give the odds of them discovering his status in 1965-25 %.
But if the right person was put on the job-who really takes his job serious, who does not take everything on face value, who is not starstruck-then they may have found him out.
(if I had been the person to check on him-you can bet I would have checked it out to the max because thats the kind of person I am)
Watergate was just a small time burglary-except 2 guys Woodward and Bernstein kept on the story-checking and checking, and Nixon ended up resigning a couple years later.
One thing that I have come to the conclusion about is this-Parker did not want to take even a 25% chance of being found out-and why he felt that way is the 10 million dollar question.

[KPM]

I don't really think so

Parker had several options to get a passport

one as i've said was to just apply for one.

Colonel Parker being from another country and entering the country when he was a young man illegally really isn't a big deal.
I think Parker had other reasons for not seeking a passport.

besides Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huellet handled the tours and Parker wouldn't of had to go anyway.

I think if Elvis had sat down with the Colonel and really explained to him how much a overseas tour meant to him that it was something he had to do I think the Colonel would've set one up.
That would depend on the circumstances for his leaving Holland abruptly-it may not be a big deal-but then again it may have been.
All he had to do in 1929 was to apply for citizenship legally-and then explain who he was and where he was from-they would do some checks and all this controversy would be mute. He did not want to tell who he was-where he was from nor any circumstances of his departure-that is telling in itself.

[Brian]

Well I'd give the odds of them discovering his status in 1965-25 %.
But if the right person was put on the job-who really takes his job serious, who does not take everything on face value, who is not starstruck-then they may have found him out.
(if I had been the person to check on him-you can bet I would have checked it out to the max because thats the kind of person I am)
Watergate was just a small time burglary-except 2 guys Woodward and Bernstein kept on the story-checking and checking, and Nixon ended up resigning a couple years later.
One thing that I have come to the conclusion about is this-Parker did not want to take even a 25% chance of being found out-and why he felt that way is the 10 million dollar question.

They didn't have all the high tech gadgetry back then and Colonel Parker had covered his tracks so well that no one even suspected he was illegal.
I bet no one would've been looking and Parker had everything that an actual citizen had so on the face of it it looked like he was American born.
I don't see a way for them to figure it out


Didn't Woodward and Bernstein have a burglary to work with that they eventually tied to Nixon?

They also had a member of Nixon staff giving them info.
If i'm not mistaken the whole Deep throat thing
He actually came out a few years ago to tell who he was and died just recently
Mark felt or Mark Phelt?
I remember all that it was a mess if Woodward and Bernstein started poking their nose around about Parker I don't think they would've found anything because nobody knew anything

Perhaps if Colonel Parker was involved with Watergate instead of Nixon no one would've ever found out.

[Jungleroom76]

That would depend on the circumstances for his leaving Holland abruptly-it may not be a big deal-but then again it may have been.
All he had to do in 1929 was to apply for citizenship legally-and then explain who he was and where he was from-they would do some checks and all this controversy would be mute. He did not want to tell who he was-where he was from nor any circumstances of his departure-that is telling in itself.

EXACTLY!!! (y) :notworthy

TCB!
Mike

[Jungleroom76]

I don't really think so

Parker had several options to get a passport

one as i've said was to just apply for one.

Colonel Parker being from another country and entering the country when he was a young man illegally really isn't a big deal.

I think Parker had other reasons for not seeking a passport.


Unfortunately, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Brian!! I truly believe that The Colonel was hiding something....he went to GREAT lengths to avoid sending Elvis on a world tour. There were several VERY HIGH PAYING offers made to The Colonel throughout the years to get Elvis to perform in various countries, and knowing what we know now about how much The Colonel had a lust for money, I find it VERY hard to believe that The Colonel would turn down those offers unless he really had something to hide in terms of why he didn't want to leave the U.S.

Obviously we'll only be able to speculate, but as I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!!! ;)


besides Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huellet handled the tours and Parker wouldn't of had to go anyway.

This arrangement CLEARLY would have never worked for The Colonel. First, The Colonel would have had to share the profits with Weintraub and Hulett and we know how much The Colonel enjoyed sharing his money!!! But more importantly than that, The Colonel was too much of a controlling presence in Elvis' life and career, and there was NO WAY The Colonel would risk letting Elvis tour overseas with other promoters who could have possibly talked Elvis into doing things that The Colonel wouldn't have had control over, or worse....talked him into firing The Colonel and hiring them as his manager! Sadly, because The Colonel wouldn't/couldn't go overseas with Elvis, Elvis never got to (and was never going to be able to) perform worldwide!!! :cursing: (That is unless Elvis fired The Colonel and got a new manager, and we all know that wasn't going to happen either...) :'(


I think if Elvis had sat down with the Colonel and really explained to him how much a overseas tour meant to him that it was something he had to do I think the Colonel would've set one up.

Again, if Elvis had sat down to discuss this with The Colonel, he would have just come up with some lame excuses why Elvis couldn't do it. As we already know, The Colonel had cited security concerns as one of his reasons why taking Elvis outside the U.S. to perform was not feasible. Perhaps that is true, but considering The Colonel's lust for money, if that were the only reason, I am sure The Colonel would have done whatever he needed to in order to take Elvis on a world tour so that he could just rake in more money for himself!!! :angry:

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree here Brian....but I certainly appreciate your point of view!! (y)

TCB!
Mike

[KPM]

They didn't have all the high tech gadgetry back then and Colonel Parker had covered his tracks so well that no one even suspected he was illegal.
I bet no one would've been looking and Parker had everything that an actual citizen had so on the face of it it looked like he was American born.
I don't see a way for them to figure it out


Didn't Woodward and Bernstein have a burglary to work with that they eventually tied to Nixon?

They also had a member of Nixon staff giving them info.
If i'm not mistaken the whole Deep throat thing
He actually came out a few years ago to tell who he was and died just recently
Mark felt or Mark Phelt?
I remember all that it was a mess if Woodward and Bernstein started poking their nose around about Parker I don't think they would've found anything because nobody knew anything

Perhaps if Colonel Parker was involved with Watergate instead of Nixon no one would've ever found out.
Well to everyone it was just a burglary-it took about a year before they were getting near Nixon-Deep Throat only began to help "after" he saw they were making progress and nearing the truth. I have at least 10 books on Watergate and the Nixon years.
But back to your original point-if in 1929 Parker had just done the legal thing and given his true name and origin-they would surely have found out whatever he seemed to worry about-that made him use the alias and the fake birthplace. That is the way it went down, he lied, why? If he had nothing to hide-if he had no worry about where he came from-why?
I'm sorry the only logical explaination is he did not want them checking into his life-he wanted to bury Andreas Cornelis van Kujik-and keep him buried.
I have no clue what he feared-but there is no doubt IMO that he feared something enough to lie and hide his true origin and name. I even think that perhaps if he had just faced whatever it was -he may have been a different person altogether.
But it does not matter if you thought he could not be caught -he obviously thought it possible.
I don't think we can beat this any further.;)

[Brian]

Unfortunately, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Brian!! I truly believe that The Colonel was hiding something....he went to GREAT lengths to avoid sending Elvis on a world tour. There were several VERY HIGH PAYING offers made to The Colonel throughout the years to get Elvis to perform in various countries, and knowing what we know now about how much The Colonel had a lust for money, I find it VERY hard to believe that The Colonel would turn down those offers unless he really had something to hide in terms of why he didn't want to leave the U.S.

Obviously we'll only be able to speculate, but as I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!!! ;)



This arrangement CLEARLY would have never worked for The Colonel. First, The Colonel would have had to share the profits with Weintraub and Hulett and we know how much The Colonel enjoyed sharing his money!!! But more importantly than that, The Colonel was too much of a controlling presence in Elvis' life and career, and there was NO WAY The Colonel would risk letting Elvis tour overseas with other promoters who could have possibly talked Elvis into doing things that The Colonel wouldn't have had control over, or worse....talked him into firing The Colonel and hiring them as his manager! Sadly, because The Colonel wouldn't/couldn't go overseas with Elvis, Elvis never got to (and was never going to be able to) perform worldwide!!! :cursing: (That is unless Elvis fired The Colonel and got a new manager, and we all know that wasn't going to happen either...) :'(



Again, if Elvis had sat down to discuss this with The Colonel, he would have just come up with some lame excuses why Elvis couldn't do it. As we already know, The Colonel had cited security concerns as one of his reasons why taking Elvis outside the U.S. to perform was not feasible. Perhaps that is true, but considering The Colonel's lust for money, if that were the only reason, I am sure The Colonel would have done whatever he needed to in order to take Elvis on a world tour so that he could just rake in more money for himself!!! :angry:

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree here Brian....but I certainly appreciate your point of view!! (y)

TCB!
Mike

Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huellet got paid a certain amount for the U.S. tours

They would've got paid the same amount for international tours regardless of if the Colonel went or not because they were Elvis promoters and they handled the tours.

I think if Elvis had sat down with the Colonel and explained to him what he wanted to do it would've happened because people don't give him enough credit for having a backbone Elvis stood up to the Colonel several times or went against what he wanted and got what he wanted instead.

I think this whole thing about other managers wanting to manage Elvis has been blown out of proportion Jerry Weintraub considered Parker his mentor and wasn't interested in managing Elvis.
Elvis was also very loyal to the Colonel as you know.

When Elvis did tours in the U.S. all he did was fly into the city he was performing in and maybe stay at a hotel until it was time to perform and then fly out then do it over and over again until the tour was completed.
Same routine for international touring.
Very little time would've have been given for Elvis to even meet other managers or agents anyway.
Have you also considered that the main reason of frustration for Elvis in the 70's was not touring overseas this caused him to be unhappy and resentful toward the Colonel now had an international tour been booked for him he wouldn't have been upset with the Colonel thus wouldn't have even considered getting rid of him.

[Brian]

Well to everyone it was just a burglary-it took about a year before they were getting near Nixon-Deep Throat only began to help "after" he saw they were making progress and nearing the truth. I have at least 10 books on Watergate and the Nixon years.
But back to your original point-if in 1929 Parker had just done the legal thing and given his true name and origin-they would surely have found out whatever he seemed to worry about-that made him use the alias and the fake birthplace. That is the way it went down, he lied, why? If he had nothing to hide-if he had no worry about where he came from-why?
I'm sorry the only logical explaination is he did not want them checking into his life-he wanted to bury Andreas Cornelis van Kujik-and keep him buried.
I have no clue what he feared-but there is no doubt IMO that he feared something enough to lie and hide his true origin and name. I even think that perhaps if he had just faced whatever it was -he may have been a different person altogether.
But it does not matter if you thought he could not be caught -he obviously thought it possible.
I don't think we can beat this any further.;)

Oh I agree with you he didn't want to take a chance for whatever reason.

I was just saying that had he applied for a passport they wouldn't of been able to find out he was illegal.

I don't believe that Parker killed anyone because it was common knowledge in Holland who Parker was
but the police in Holland never came looking for him to even question him about this murder that took place.
So evidently he wasn't even a suspect as far as the police were concerned.

So I think i've got it narrowed down a bit

[Jungleroom76]

Jerry Weintraub and Tom Huellet got paid a certain amount for the U.S. tours

They would've got paid the same amount for international tours regardless of if the Colonel went or not because they were Elvis promoters and they handled the tours.

Somehow I have to think that if they had gone overseas with Elvis and had to take care of all the tour details (if The Colonel didn't accompany Elvis), they certainly would have wanted to be paid more for their work. :hmm:

And yes, Weintraub and Hulett did get paid for the U.S. tours, but The Colonel certainly didn't want to have to spend any more $$$ than he had to at any time!!! ;)


I think if Elvis had sat down with the Colonel and explained to him what he wanted to do it would've happened because people don't give him enough credit for having a backbone Elvis stood up to the Colonel several times or went against what he wanted and got what he wanted instead.

True, but by the same token, there were times that Elvis went head-to-head with The Colonel and The Colonel talked Elvis out of things as well. And considering the lengths that The Colonel went to in order to keep his past buried, this would have been one of those times I am sure! :hmm:


I think this whole thing about other managers wanting to manage Elvis has been blown out of proportion Jerry Weintraub considered Parker his mentor and wasn't interested in managing Elvis.
Elvis was also very loyal to the Colonel as you know.

Yes, Elvis was very loyal to The Colonel...HOWEVER, I have a feeling that if Elvis had ever found out what The Colonel had been doing to him during the later years, he would have fired him....loyalty or not!

And I think there were MANY MANAGERS out there who would have given their right arm to manage Elvis, given half the chance!!! Maybe not Weintraub, but I think just about any manager would have jumped at the chance to manage Elvis Presley!


Have you also considered that the main reason of frustration for Elvis in the 70's was not touring overseas this caused him to be unhappy and resentful toward the Colonel now had an international tour been booked for him he wouldn't have been upset with the Colonel thus wouldn't have even considered getting rid of him.

Yes, it is very well documented that Elvis was unhappy because of the constant rut of touring the same cities over and over, without any changes or new challenges. And yes, an overseas tour would have definitely provided Elvis with that much needed spark!!! But it is obvious now that with The Colonel in charge, and his need to keep his past buried, that overseas tour was just never going to happen!!! :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

As I said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!!! ;)

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

Somehow I have to think that if they had gone overseas with Elvis and had to take care of all the tour details (if The Colonel didn't accompany Elvis), they certainly would have wanted to be paid more for their work. :hmm:

And yes, Weintraub and Hulett did get paid for the U.S. tours, but The Colonel certainly didn't want to have to spend any more $$$ than he had to at any time!!! ;)


TCB!
Mike


My point is Jerry Weintraub and Tom Hulett were the one's that handled all the major details on the tour the Colonel's role was actually very minimal I think all he did was go a day ahead with Sonny West to check out proper hotels and security exits and handout hotel keys to the band when they arrived.
Sonny could've handled that by himself and the Colonel could've sent Tom Diskin or one of his other assistants to hand out hotel keys to the band members.

So Jerry Weintraub and Tom Hulett wouldn't of had to do anything extra just do what they always did.

[Jungleroom76]

...and the Colonel could've sent Tom Diskin or one of his other assistants to hand out hotel keys to the band members.

So Jerry Weintraub and Tom Hulett wouldn't of had to do anything extra just do what they always did.

That may be true, but still...The Colonel needed to be in control of everything when it came to Elvis and being half a continent or more away, The Colonel would have not been able to exert his influence over Elvis nearly as easily and The Colonel just couldn't take the chance that Jerry and/or Tom could have persuaded Elvis to do things that The Colonel wouldn't/couldn't/didn't want Elvis to do!

TCB!
Mike

[Brian]

That may be true, but still...The Colonel needed to be in control of everything when it came to Elvis and being half a continent or more away, The Colonel would have not been able to exert his influence over Elvis nearly as easily and The Colonel just couldn't take the chance that Jerry and/or Tom could have persuaded Elvis to do things that The Colonel wouldn't/couldn't/didn't want Elvis to do!

TCB!
Mike

I think the Colonel could've trusted Jerry and Tom to go overseas with Elvis
without him going.

Jerry Weintraub considered Parker his mentor and thought he was the greatest guy in the world so he wouldn't of stabbed him in the back by trying to steal his client.
Plus Jerry was already managing 20 clients including John Denver and the Carpenters both were selling more records than Elvis was at the time.

Tom Huelett same thing.

[KPM]

Oh I agree with you he didn't want to take a chance for whatever reason.

I was just saying that had he applied for a passport they wouldn't of been able to find out he was illegal.

I don't believe that Parker killed anyone because it was common knowledge in Holland who Parker was
but the police in Holland never came looking for him to even question him about this murder that took place.So evidently he wasn't even a suspect as far as the police were concerned.

So I think i've got it narrowed down a bit
Well to your own satisfaction you've narrowed it down I agree.
I guess its hard to find someone who disappears over night with only the clothes on his back-then changes his name in another country and says he was born in W. Virginia-and is not recognised by anyone anywhere for 25 years.
As far as the police in Holland-the chances of a them looking any further than the immediate area in the 1920s are pretty slim. You could commit a crime in Nevada and disappear into the east coast, or midwest farming areas in the US in the 20s with little trouble.
I have no clue if he killed someone, robbed someone, was a bystander who saw something he should not have,.... maybe conned someone bigtime.... I have no clue-but he ran fast and hard from something! You do not run fast and hard on a whim...... or change your identity over a petty crime or a misunderstanding-makes no sense at all.

[Brian]

Well to your own satisfaction you've narrowed it down I agree.
I guess its hard to find someone who disappears over night with only the clothes on his back-then changes his name in another country and says he was born in W. Virginia-and is not recognised by anyone anywhere for 25 years.
As far as the police in Holland-the chances of a them looking any further than the immediate area in the 1920s are pretty slim. You could commit a crime in Nevada and disappear into the east coast, or midwest farming areas in the US in the 20s with little trouble.
I have no clue if he killed someone, robbed someone, was a bystander who saw something he should not have,.... maybe conned someone bigtime.... I have no clue-but he ran fast and hard from something! You do not run fast and hard on a whim...... or change your identity over a petty crime or a misunderstanding-makes no sense at all.

That doesn't mean he killed anyone.

He changed his name because he wanted to pass for an American

I know he was never a murder suspect by the Police in Holland

Alanna Nash theory that he killed a woman doesn't hold water because she provided no substantive evidence.

[KPM]

I think the Colonel could've trusted Jerry and Tom to go overseas with Elvis
without him going.

Jerry Weintraub considered Parker his mentor and thought he was the greatest guy in the world so he wouldn't of stabbed him in the back by trying to steal his client.
Plus Jerry was already managing 20 clients including John Denver and the Carpenters both were selling more records than Elvis was at the time.

Tom Huelett same thing.
Parker seems to have trusted few people-Weintraub is not an exception.
Parker thought people had alterior motives and "his own alterior motives" may have helped reinforce the idea.
So I would not ever think Parker was confortable with allowing anyone too much control or access to Elvis and the business of managing Elvis-that was his modus operandi for the entire time he managed Elvis.

[Brian]

Parker seems to have trusted few people-Weintraub is not an exception.
Parker thought people had alterior motives and "his own alterior motives" may have helped reinforce the idea.
So I would not ever think Parker was confortable with allowing anyone too much control or access to Elvis and the business of managing Elvis-that was his modus operandi for the entire time he managed Elvis.

nah

If Elvis wanted to go bad enough he should've sat down and explained to Parker he had to do it.

Jerry Weintraub, Charlie Stone, Tom Diskin someone else could've handled.

[KPM]

nah

If Elvis wanted to go bad enough he should've sat down and explained to Parker he had to do it.

Jerry Weintraub, Charlie Stone, Tom Diskin someone else could've handled.
I think you and I just see it totally opposite-as you well know;)
I see The Col. as someone who was smart-and Elvis as someone who had insecurities and who was easily led-Parkers specialty-that is the heart of the relationship. I think Parker and Elvis had a close relationship and that they had a bond between them especially in the beginning. But make no mistake having affection for Elvis does not mean Parker always had Elvis's best interests at heart or that it meant he always was above board in his recommendations-which looking back has to be obvious to most.
Let me ask you this do you think Tom Parker ever encouraged Elvis to tour overseas?
We know he at times discouraged him from such ideas- his pat answer was the time is not right.
Did Elvis come to Parker and say I want to do a Satellite show around the world ? No Parker came to Elvis. Did Elvis come to Parker demanding the 68 Special? No Parker came to Elvis with the deal. Elvis had rarely asked the Col to set up anything out of the ordinary-Parker let Elvis know up front I handle the deals and its a rule Elvis lived by (unfortunatley)